Putting Taoism to the Test (experience, faith, verse)

[Scarlett Wampus]

I still have doubts as to whether Taoism can really work. I know this is the case because I'm reluctant to put it to the test. This happens even though I believe I've got nothing to lose except my own stubbornness. By that I mean attachment to how I want to see things rather than accepting the way they are and allowing Tao to guide my actions. In fact for me its that belief needs to be put to test, thoroughly and ruthlessly.

Reminds me of a terrible joke I've heard: When is an obstacle not an obstacle? When the Tao gets in the way. Anyway...

What are your own doubts about Taoism?

How do you feel you could put Taoism to the test regarding them?

Could the willingness to do this amount to an odd sort of Taoist faith?

[windcarver]

Hmmmm what are my doubts about taoism????? I guess I don't really have any doubts, persay, but there are parts of it that sort of confuse me. For example, i still haven't figured out how it is possible to have no desires, including the desire to have no desires. ? . I'm lost. - - But how could I put my faith to the test? I could try not wanting anything, but then I'd be desiring to have no desires, and then I'd start to desire that I could understand this whole desiring thing, and - -
If that answers your question.

[Master Vigil]

Originally Posted by Scarlett Wampus

I still have doubts as to whether Taoism can really work. I know this is the case because I'm reluctant to put it to the test. This happens even though I believe I've got nothing to lose except my own stubbornness. By that I mean attachment to how I want to see things rather than accepting the way they are and allowing Tao to guide my actions. In fact for me its that belief needs to be put to test, thoroughly and ruthlessly.

I know what you mean. But then my Taoist master said to me once... Why is a rich, striving business man just as much of a Taoist than a Taoist monk? Because both are doing naturally what they do. If one looks at in the form of Wu Wei... It would be very difficult for the business man to be a Taoist monk, and would be very difficult for the Taoist monk to be a business man. If the business man tried to be a Taoist monk, give up everything, become non-attached, etc... It would in effect be going against Tao. And the same goes for the Taoist monk. That is how I understand it.

Reminds me of a terrible joke I've heard: When is an obstacle not an obstacle? When the Tao gets in the way. Anyway...

What are your own doubts about Taoism?

That it isn't what I think it is, or what all of the Taoist master's wrote that it is.

How do you feel you could put Taoism to the test regarding them?

I try to test my Taoist thought by being like the animals and nature. And I find myself more peaceful, and I think that's the oneness Taoism talks about.

Could the willingness to do this amount to an odd sort of Taoist faith?

I try not to think of it as faith, but a BEingness. I am not putting faith in any practice, belief, or idea. I am just BEing who and what I am. I don't "know" who or what I am, nor do I have an idea of who or what I am. But if I can BE, then I don't need to know who or what I am. Does that make sense?

[the_Unknown]

Testing the Tao is as pointless
as trying to do anything.

You will only accept the Tao when you completely realize this futility.

--------------------------------

The Tao is the blueprint of the universe.

Everything in this universe is a product from the Tao.

The Tao has no physical substance because it is the plan and the rules.

Because it is behind everything, it is the only 'real' thing.

=================================

To have faith is to know.

The only thing that can ever be known is truth.

The only truth is the Tao.

Everyone and everything is a part of the Tao.
So everyone and everything already knows the Tao.

=============================

If you see yourself as man or women, small or big, weak or strong, ugly or beautiful, good or evil...

You see yourself as only the manifestations of the Tao.

You see yourself as some thing or no thing.

You see yourself as mortal things subject to change.


If you see yourself as man and woman, big and small, strong and weak, beautiful and ugly, good and evil...

You see yourself as everything and nothing.

You see yourself as an immortal subject to no change.

For if you are both things, yet neither
What else can you be?

[Scarlett Wampus]

Originally Posted by The_Unknown

Testing the Tao is as pointless
as trying to do anything.

You will only accept the Tao when you completely realize this futility.

Oh yes, but I meant Taoism should be put to the test, not the Tao.

Poignant post as usual T_U. You can firmly slice through congealed concepts with ease. What other skills do you cultivate? Not by trying, but as a course of natural action?

Originally Posted by windcarver

I guess I don't really have any doubts, persay, but there are parts of it that sort of confuse me. For example, i still haven't figured out how it is possible to have no desires, including the desire to have no desires. ?

Should something ever come up for you that Taoism is meant to address, i.e. be useful for, then that would be the time to put it to the test I guess. If there is not doubt but curiousity & confusion then exploration into this is always worth giving a go instead. Do you meditate or spend time in silent contemplation? Not desiring not to have desires is an excellent time to start such a thing. Just a thought.

Originally Posted by Master Vigil

I know what you mean. But then my Taoist master said to me once... Why is a rich, striving business man just as much of a Taoist than a Taoist monk? Because both are doing naturally what they do. If one looks at in the form of Wu Wei... It would be very difficult for the business man to be a Taoist monk, and would be very difficult for the Taoist monk to be a business man. If the business man tried to be a Taoist monk, give up everything, become non-attached, etc... It would in effect be going against Tao. And the same goes for the Taoist monk. That is how I understand it.

Yes I see that. I'm not sure how accepting things as they are and acting in accordance with Tao would be bad for business though. There is a Tao of business as well as a Tao of monastic life, and at some point they should connect up since otherwise there is disharmony. Since so many experience disharmony that would suggest there is much going against the Tao, in business as well as everything else.

Originally Posted by Master Vigil

I try not to think of it as faith, but a BEingness. I am not putting faith in any practice, belief, or idea. I am just BEing who and what I am. I don't "know" who or what I am, nor do I have an idea of who or what I am. But if I can BE, then I don't need to know who or what I am. Does that make sense?

It makes sense, and is what I was trying to get at. As I see it if there is a faith when it comes to Taoism its not that things should be a certain way, but that the open way is revealed when we stop trying to make things a certain way. This is for me what needs to be put to the test. For instance, a typical view of mine would be this: Nowhere is the Tao to be found but a tenuous [Hsü] mind rests in it. A tenuous mind more clearly perceives the form/pattern [Li] of things and its content/substance [Chi]. Responding to this there is spontaneous action [Wu Wei] flowing with power/virtue [Te]. This power/virtue is capable of bringing harmony to the world.

This I need to put to the test because my hestitation and laziness in cultivating a tenuous mind reveals my doubts. I should clear them up. If Taoism works then I want to see it work really well, not just within my comfort zone.

[the_Unknown]

Skills involve practice.

Practice means trying.

Trying means a lack of competance.

The Tao lacks nothing.

----------------------------------

The only natural action is to be the Tao.

Cultivation assumes a lack of.

The Tao is everything and nothing.

There is no need to cultivate the Tao.

--------------------------------------------------

You cannot go against the Tao.

Ying and yang go against eachother.

The Tao creates and holds ying and yang.

==========================

Learning Taoism
is like
rolling the Tao in mud.

To truly see the Tao
you must unlearn Taoism
and clean off this mud.

[ChrisP]

Originally Posted by Scarlett Wampus

I still have doubts as to whether Taoism can really work. I know this is the case because I'm reluctant to put it to the test. This happens even though I believe I've got nothing to lose except my own stubbornness. By that I mean attachment to how I want to see things rather than accepting the way they are and allowing Tao to guide my actions. In fact for me its that belief needs to be put to test, thoroughly and ruthlessly.

I wish you luck with that test, it sounds like one of those "open book" type things that let's the evil lecturer make all the questions harder just cos you can look em up.

Reminds me of a terrible joke I've heard: When is an obstacle not an obstacle? When the Tao gets in the way. Anyway...

What are your own doubts about Taoism?
I have trouble comprehending how humans are the only creatures capable of abstractly examining the existence of Tao.

I also wonder about some things that happen which (to me) seem unnatural, but the tao accepts this and adapts, which is at it should be I suppose, but these things still occur...

I'm talking in general about the cloning/growth of life in testubes... it doesn't seem... at all right to me. Duplicating something that IS already.

How do you feel you could put Taoism to the test regarding them?
The first point is almost moot as it's assuming that I'm not fooling myself as to the nature of the Tao in the first instance.

The second... well I'll wait till we know I spose. Patience is a viiiiirtue.

Could the willingness to do this amount to an odd sort of Taoist faith?

Everyone likes to test their faith to reassure them that their faith is justified.

Faith NEEDS NO justification. How is it possible to test something that is Nothing and Everything, Benign and omniscient (in the sense of understanding)... as a human it can't be done. The Tao is the only thing that could test itself, and when something limitless test it's limits... well who knows what happens.

A quote :

I am incapable of conceiving infinity, and yet I do not accept finity.

-Simone de Beauvoir

[Scarlett Wampus]

Originally Posted by ChrisP

I wish you luck with that test, it sounds like one of those "open book" type things that let's the evil lecturer make all the questions harder just cos you can look em up.

I'm not sure what that means, but I'm of the mind that the kind of open questions asked should be beyond hard if they're going to break through complacency. e.g. What was your face before you were born? What is the most important thing?

Originally Posted by ChrisP

Faith NEEDS NO justification. How is it possible to test something that is Nothing and Everything, Benign and omniscient (in the sense of understanding)... as a human it can't be done. The Tao is the only thing that could test itself, and when something limitless test it's limits... well who knows what happens.

Ok, yeah, testing faith is nonsense if you put it like that. Its just that, I need to see for myself the harmony at work that following the Way is meant to bring. I'm fed up of absent-mindedly chewing cinnamon sticks while the world tears itself apart. If that means I'm actually parting ways with Taoism, then so be it.

Originally Posted by The_Unknown

The only natural action is to be the Tao.

Cultivation assumes a lack of.

The Tao is everything and nothing.

There is no need to cultivate the Tao.

Excellent post again T_U. I can't argue with it, but I'm concerned its possible to interpret such things to bolster denial. As I see it there is no need to cultivate the Tao, yet things get cultivated as a natural course of action anyway. If they don't then perhaps all we are doing is practising the Tao of decadence. I'm going to post a story from the Chuang Tzu that highlights this everything and nothing cultivation.

[ChrisP]

Originally Posted by Scarlett Wampus

Ok, yeah, testing faith is nonsense if you put it like that. Its just that, I need to see for myself the harmony at work that following the Way is meant to bring. I'm fed up of absent-mindedly chewing cinnamon sticks while the world tears itself apart. If that means I'm actually parting ways with Taoism, then so be it.

I'm sorry to hear about your struggle. If you're looking for harmony... well I'm not sure you'll find it S_W and that is a sad thing. If the Tao is the root of all, everything you see now before you is Tao. War and Peace, Hate and Love, Life, Death, despair. These are all manifestations of the Tao, harmony among them. Perhaps what we see before us now IS harmony. After all, the human idea of Harmony is usually a utopian one.