Taoism and Christianity (Jesus, ritual, Earth, crucify, translation)

[sanraal]

Anyone ever noticed how much similarity there is between the Tao te Ching and the New Testament if we read well.

I have found many examples. I will just type a few.

- "The Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao. (Ch.1)
- God is all in all; he is indeed, too omnipresent to categorise in a square. God is beyond defining.

- Thus, cleave to nonbeing in order to observe its etherealities (Ch.1)
- Jesus showed us that when we 'diminish' or cruficy our own bodies, we are able to see and receive what is hidden, the spiritual or the ethereal world.

- It is named the Mysterious Female. (Ch.6)
- The Valley Spirit is female. Jesus said the Spirit is the most 'gentle' part of God. The spirit never forces on anymore (which is a female quality) and is easily scared or 'saddened'. Just like we have a Spirit, God also has one. The 'masculine' part of God (the law) is fulfilled with his Spirit (the female forgiving part of God). Ephesians tells about the positive fruits of the spirit.
The Spirit is mysterious since John tells us that God looks at the hidden part of us, our hearts. The Spirit works in the 'hidden', the Spirit/ Ethereal world. Pray in seclusion and your heavenly Father will reward you in secret since he looks at what is hidden.

- It is there within us all the while. (Ch.6)
- Jesus said the Spirit should float freely through us. We have to receive it within. It is the highest Eternal Spirit.

- Draw upon it as you will, it never runs dry (Ch.6)
- The Valley Spirit's or the 'Vital Breath' spiritual life energy/Chi is endless. Since the Spirit is part of the Divine (God) and is the universual spirit, we can draw upon the Spirit without having to fear it runs out. Jesus showed us how to work with the Holy Spirit.

- Heaven persists, earth endures. The reason earth persists and heaven endures is that they do not live for themselves. (Ch.7)
- That is very logical since 'the will of heaven' persists. Jesus said we on earth have to keep faith and indure hardships. Heaven (the Divine) certainly do not live for themselves. If we on earth have to endure, we are not living for ourselves. We are trodding on the Way, on the wings of the Spirit and live for others.

- In opening and closing of Heaven's Gate, Can you be feminine? (Ch.10)
- The New testament says that we are 'God's bride'. The Spirit of God can fill us (the feminine part of the Divine) while God (the masculine part) comes to take 'their brides' for unity with him. To do this, we of course have to 'crucify' our masculine controlling part of us that wants to dominate and focus on the feminine part. So this statement is very true.

- Mind manipulating Chi is called strong. (Ch.30)
- Doing things out of own will (mind manipulating) is seen as good in society. One has to get 'ahead', all the time, making career, standing the storms etc. These all make you strong. And now and then we manipulate others to our wills. It is seen as strong in society.

When things are strong, they grow old. (Ch.30)

This is termed contrary to Tao. (Ch.30)
- Yet it is not strong since people try to take control of things, people want to rule. In our society we quickly advance and can make career but we also can go quickly down. This is not God. This are the material desires, the desires of the world, of the body.

What is contrary to Tao early perishes. (Ch.30)
- You have to rely on God’s universal source of energy, not on your own. The self often manipulates. Since God is love, he does not manipulate. All that is out of the body of God is subject to decay. With this I do not mean one has to sacrifice everything of one's personality since then we would all be the same people but only the things that are contrary to 'the Way'. Things that are contrary are things of 'the flesh' in the Bible. These are: arrogance, anger, pride, material desires, intolerance, unforgiveness, dominance/ manipulation etc. Paul says in Galatians that these are desires of the flesh. They are no 'sins' on itself but they can lead to sin (Jesus was angry too when his Father's temple was desacrated).

In times past, the One appeared in the following pattern
The heavens attained the One and became clear; (Ch.39)

- This is so true. Heaven realised God and became clear since God is good.

The earth attained the One and settled;
The spirits attained the One and became numinous; (Ch.39)

- Spirits found the one and become null, empty, harmless. My wife tells me this almost looks like the ascension of Jesus. After all, he hung on the cross, ascended to heaven and 'exposed' all the evil in the world. The air was filled with negativity and spirits were lashing out at Jesus but he overwon them by totally giving himself to the Father in a living sacrifice. This text is debatable but I like it.

Valleys attained the One and became reproductive;
All things attained the One and became alive; (Ch.39)

- Can this be negative? Of course not, because the New Testament says God gives life. Every person that finds God, finds the Divine Spirit within himself and is connected to the source of all life. Everyone who has this chi floating through him by acting the way God wants it (by loving others as you would love yourself), you are following 'the Way'.
- But how does one acquire it? Since Jesus completely walked in the path of the One, he was without lies and negativity. He (symbolically) said therefore: 'I am the Way, the truth and Life', which was true. He was just showing the Way that gives most life.


Kings and queens attained the One and became the orthodox of the world.
In the heavens, that which is not clear eventually settles.
On the earth, that does not settle dissipates. (Ch.39)
Spirits which are not luminous disappear.
- This is another great phrase. Spirits will go away when the ONE comes. I do not think all spirits (else the Holy Spirit would too) but only the Spirits that are evil and against the source of all life, the Divine source.

- When an inferior person hears Tao, he roars with laughter. If he didn't laugh, it wouldn't be Tao. (Ch.41)

- The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:14)
- I also have found another way to interpret this. 'Inferior' means less. Many people that are less fortunate in society or have a handicap are 'simple' people. I see in Chuches that God often touches these people more. They are more sensitive and open to change of emotions, like laughter!

The Tao gives birth to the One. (Ch.42)
- God manifests from the Way, the source.
- The One gives birth to the two.
- The two begot three.
- Of course one can interpret these verses in multiple ways. God gives birth to Spirit and Son. In Paganism/ Wicca, the God and Goddess represent this duality.

"If you want to reduce something, you must certainly stretch it.

If you want to weaken something, you must certainly strengthen it.

If you want to abolish something, you must certainly make it flourish.

If you want to grasp something, you must certainly take it away. (Ch.55)

[sanraal]

- This is really a Yin/Yang chapter, one of the many in the Tao te Ching. When wanting something you must be without desire, not trying to cling to it. You must be able to let things go. Jesus says that when you give your desires and problems to the Father, he will work on it and if you pray and really believe, you will receive it. Karma also works like this. One who does good towards another will be filled with spirit and gets good in return.


This is referred to as subtle enlightenment.
The pliant and weak will conquer the hard and strong."
Tao Te Ching (Chapter 55)

- I like the word 'subtle' here. People do not see this kind of wisdom, nor understand it. This is because it is not of this world. It is of the Spirit. Jesus said that if you crufify yourself and make yourself humble, your Father in heaven will elevate you. Opening up to others by not judging (removing the beam from your own eye before judging about the bar in others eyes) and forgiving (forgive your sins so that your Father will forgive yours. If you hold sins against someone, they are not forgiven), you will make someone listen more. It works better than trying to conquer fire with fire, the hard with the hard, the strong with the strong.

The Tao that enlightens appears dark.
- Very true since the population is often not attracted to the good and benevolent. They run away from what is good (God) and find it so more easy to go into what is dark (their own desires, the material etc).
The Tao that is dark appears light.
- Evil is seen as 'nice' or 'tough' in society and gives people comfort. Unfortunately this comfort is often either not lasting, not complete or gives more negativity/ problems. But indeed, things that are negative for man appear as positive for them. Someone who has problems and wants to drink them away with alcohol, for him alcohol seems to be -the- solution while it is something negative.

- Strong trees will break

- Weak trees will bend

- This is verylogical since when you try to become stronger and stronger out of own strength, you’ll eventually meet someone stronger while when you are ‘weak’ (humble, staying on the background etc), you bend when there is a too strong gust of wind. A strong tree can take a lot of wind but eventually it will break when the circumstances are too heavy.

TAO gives them life,
Virtue nurses them,
Matter shapes them,
Environment perfects them.
Therefore all things without exception worship Tao and
do homage to Virtue.
They have not been commanded to worship Tao and do
homage to Virtue,
But they always do so spontaneously. (Ch.51)
- God gives people life and the Spirit cares for people. People are indeed 'shaped' by the world, through their culture and surroundings. If the Son (Jesus) is virtue, then the following things are alike:
- Jesus nurses - true ('come to me and I will give you rest. Come to me when you are wounded. Come to me and have eternal life. I give living water and my bread is the true bread).
- People pay homage to the Son. Yes true since Jesus did not ask people to worship him. He said 'worship the Father'. Jesus also said in John: the Father is greater than I am and I can do nothing without the Father. But people did give him thanks, paid him homage. Why? Because he served the people and was good for them. He humbled himself and went along with everyone, even the criminals. Therefore people worshipped indeed, God and paid thanks to the Son.

THE Sage has no interests of his own,
But takes the interests of the people as his own. (Ch.49)
- Any prophet/ sage/ guru/ advisor who works not for his own motives but for the benefit of others from the heart, without desiring anything back, works for the Divine. His tree/ foundation is the Gods. John says in the New Testament:
- Then Jesus answered them, ‘My teaching is not mine but his who sent me. Anyone who resolves to do the will of God will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own. Those who speak on their own seek their own glory; but the one who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and there is nothing false in him. (John 7:16-18)
- Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. (1 John 4:7)

Loving others IS EQUAL TO knowing God

- God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. (1 John 4:16)

We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. (1 John 3:14)


Therefore, the Sage embraces the One,
And becomes a Pattern to all under Heaven.
He does not make a show of himself,
Hence he shines;
Does not justify himself,
Hence he becomes known; (Ch.22)

- The One elevates anyone who humbled himself for the cause of others.

Hence, the Sage is always good at saving men,
And therefore nobody is abandoned; (Ch.27)


These are my findings on Taoism. Christianity is my main belief but I am not fundamentalistic. I just see a lot of similarities between the two believes. In my eyes, the Way in the two believes is the way to what Jesus said, preservation and life.

IF only I had the tiniest grain of wisdom,
I should walk in the Great Way,
And my only fear would be to stray from it.

The Great Way is very smooth and straight;

And yet the people prefer devious paths. (Ch. 53)

I love Lao Tzu. I think he was an excellent enlightened person. When I compare it to the Bible, I really find nothing that goes against it.

Chris

[Buttons*]

Personally, i feel that Gnostic Christianity would be closer to Taoism.... (but i'm biased)

[Master Vigil]

Originally Posted by sanraal

Anyone ever noticed how much similarity there is between the Tao te Ching and the New Testament if we read well.

In some ways.

I have found many examples. I will just type a few.

- "The Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao. (Ch.1)
- God is all in all; he is indeed, too omnipresent to categorise in a square. God is beyond defining.

The only problem with this is the writers of the new testament believed in the god of abraham, or Yahweh. Thus they give it a name, and a gender. Therefore they are going against Lao Tzu's first premise. They name it.

- Thus, cleave to nonbeing in order to observe its etherealities (Ch.1)

- Jesus showed us that when we 'diminish' or cruficy our own bodies, we are able to see and receive what is hidden, the spiritual or the ethereal world.

There is a difference between the "nonbeing" of Taoist oneness, and the spiritual ethereal world of heaven that jesus refers to.

- It is named the Mysterious Female. (Ch.6)

- The Valley Spirit is female. Jesus said the Spirit is the most 'gentle' part of God. The spirit never forces on anymore (which is a female quality) and is easily scared or 'saddened'. Just like we have a Spirit, God also has one. The 'masculine' part of God (the law) is fulfilled with his Spirit (the female forgiving part of God). Ephesians tells about the positive fruits of the spirit.

The Spirit of the Valley is not female. It is just referred to as the the yin part of the duality. When Lao Tzu talks about us understanding Tao, we understand it by it's effects. Not necessarily by it's female aspects.

The Spirit is mysterious since John tells us that God looks at the hidden part of us, our hearts. The Spirit works in the 'hidden', the Spirit/ Ethereal world. Pray in seclusion and your heavenly Father will reward you in secret since he looks at what is hidden.

- It is there within us all the while. (Ch.6)

But it is also what is unhidden. All at the same time.

- Jesus said the Spirit should float freely through us. We have to receive it within. It is the highest Eternal Spirit.

- Draw upon it as you will, it never runs dry (Ch.6)
- The Valley Spirit's or the 'Vital Breath' spiritual life energy/Chi is endless. Since the Spirit is part of the Divine (God) and is the universual spirit, we can draw upon the Spirit without having to fear it runs out. Jesus showed us how to work with the Holy Spirit.

While I agree with your logic, it follows from an fallacious premise... that chi and the holy spirit are not seen as the same.

- Heaven persists, earth endures.

The reason earth persists and heaven endures is that they do not live for themselves. (Ch.7)
- That is very logical since 'the will of heaven' persists. Jesus said we on earth have to keep faith and indure hardships. Heaven (the Divine) certainly do not live for themselves. If we on earth have to endure, we are not living for ourselves. We are trodding on the Way, on the wings of the Spirit and live for others.

This is the problem with translations. "Heaven" in the chinese sense of it is NOT the same as the christian sense of it. Heaven for a Taoist is seen as the sky, not as "The Divine".

- In opening and closing of Heaven's Gate,

Can you be feminine? (Ch.10)
- The New testament says that we are 'God's bride'. The Spirit of God can fill us (the feminine part of the Divine) while God (the masculine part) comes to take 'their brides' for unity with him. To do this, we of course have to 'crucify' our masculine controlling part of us that wants to dominate and focus on the feminine part. So this statement is very true.

The Taoist concept is more on the understanding of "Can you be humble." It has nothing to do with "crucifying" our masculine part.

[Master Vigil]

- Mind manipulating Chi is called strong. (Ch.30)

- Doing things out of own will (mind manipulating) is seen as good in society. One has to get 'ahead', all the time, making career, standing the storms etc. These all make you strong. And now and then we manipulate others to our wills. It is seen as strong in society.

When things are strong, they grow old. (Ch.30)

This is termed contrary to Tao. (Ch.30)
- Yet it is not strong since people try to take control of things, people want to rule. In our society we quickly advance and can make career but we also can go quickly down. This is not God. This are the material desires, the desires of the world, of the body.

What is contrary to Tao early perishes. (Ch.30)
- You have to rely on God’s universal source of energy, not on your own. The self often manipulates. Since God is love, he does not manipulate. All that is out of the body of God is subject to decay. With this I do not mean one has to sacrifice everything of one's personality since then we would all be the same people but only the things that are contrary to 'the Way'. Things that are contrary are things of 'the flesh' in the Bible. These are: arrogance, anger, pride, material desires, intolerance, unforgiveness, dominance/ manipulation etc. Paul says in Galatians that these are desires of the flesh. They are no 'sins' on itself but they can lead to sin (Jesus was angry too when his Father's temple was desacrated).

Chapter 30 discusses how a ruler should rule. And how an empire could flourish if it followed Tao. You are reading too much into it. There is no reason to equate "What is against Tao will soon cease to be" with things that lead to sin. There is no sin, nor a god that loves in Taoism.

In times past, the One appeared in the following pattern

The heavens attained the One and became clear; (Ch.39)

- This is so true. Heaven realised God and became clear since God is good.

The earth attained the One and settled;
The spirits attained the One and became numinous; (Ch.39)
- Spirits found the one and become null, empty, harmless. My wife tells me this almost looks like the ascension of Jesus. After all, he hung on the cross, ascended to heaven and 'exposed' all the evil in the world. The air was filled with negativity and spirits were lashing out at Jesus but he overwon them by totally giving himself to the Father in a living sacrifice. This text is debatable but I like it.

Valleys attained the One and became reproductive;
All things attained the One and became alive; (Ch.39)

Again, you are misunderstanding the eastern concepts, and putting your western concepts in. Remember, heaven is not "heaven" for a Taoist. And the "spirits" that are talked of in Taoism are not the same as in christianity. Also, there is no evil in Taoism.

- Can this be negative? Of course not, because the New Testament says God gives life. Every person that finds God, finds the Divine Spirit within himself and is connected to the source of all life. Everyone who has this chi floating through him by acting the way God wants it (by loving others as you would love yourself), you are following 'the Way'.

- But how does one acquire it? Since Jesus completely walked in the path of the One, he was without lies and negativity. He (symbolically) said therefore: 'I am the Way, the truth and Life', which was true. He was just showing the Way that gives most life.

Are you saying that Jesus was a Taoist? Or that all Taoists need to follow Jesus?

Kings and queens attained the One and became the orthodox of the world.

In the heavens, that which is not clear eventually settles.
On the earth, that does not settle dissipates. (Ch.39)
Spirits which are not luminous disappear.
- This is another great phrase. Spirits will go away when the ONE comes. I do not think all spirits (else the Holy Spirit would too) but only the Spirits that are evil and against the source of all life, the Divine source.

More mistranslation. I see nowhere in passage 39 that spirits disappear.

- When an inferior person hears Tao, he roars with laughter. If he didn't laugh, it wouldn't be Tao. (Ch.41)

- The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:14)
- I also have found another way to interpret this. 'Inferior' means less. Many people that are less fortunate in society or have a handicap are 'simple' people. I see in Chuches that God often touches these people more. They are more sensitive and open to change of emotions, like laughter!

All Lao Tzu is trying to say is that it takes humility to understand Tao. It takes a letting go of our ego, and a constant vigilance to nature and the way of Tao to understand it. If one laughs at his teachings. It shows that they are not humble enough to understand Tao.

[Master Vigil]

Originally Posted by sanraal

- This is really a Yin/Yang chapter, one of the many in the Tao te Ching. When wanting something you must be without desire, not trying to cling to it. You must be able to let things go. Jesus says that when you give your desires and problems to the Father, he will work on it and if you pray and really believe, you will receive it. Karma also works like this. One who does good towards another will be filled with spirit and gets good in return.

However, praying and really believing is clinging.

This is referred to as subtle enlightenment.

The pliant and weak will conquer the hard and strong."
Tao Te Ching (Chapter 55)

- I like the word 'subtle' here. People do not see this kind of wisdom, nor understand it. This is because it is not of this world. It is of the Spirit. Jesus said that if you crufify yourself and make yourself humble, your Father in heaven will elevate you. Opening up to others by not judging (removing the beam from your own eye before judging about the bar in others eyes) and forgiving (forgive your sins so that your Father will forgive yours. If you hold sins against someone, they are not forgiven), you will make someone listen more. It works better than trying to conquer fire with fire, the hard with the hard, the strong with the strong.

I agree with almost everything. Except with your concept of humility not being a wisdom of this world, and one of the spirit. Since I see no difference between this world and spirit, and neither do Taoists.

The Tao that enlightens appears dark.

- Very true since the population is often not attracted to the good and benevolent. They run away from what is good (God) and find it so more easy to go into what is dark (their own desires, the material etc).
The Tao that is dark appears light.
- Evil is seen as 'nice' or 'tough' in society and gives people comfort. Unfortunately this comfort is often either not lasting, not complete or gives more negativity/ problems. But indeed, things that are negative for man appear as positive for them. Someone who has problems and wants to drink them away with alcohol, for him alcohol seems to be -the- solution while it is something negative.

Woah, you missed it. The Tao that enligthens appears dark because it is unknowable to those who cling to their ego. This includes those who still cling to opposites, like good and evil. It is like a deep cavern that has a bottom that cannot be seen. There is no evil in Taoism. The Darkenss appears light to a Taoist because they are not blinded by the ego's paradigms.

- Strong trees will break

- Weak trees will bend

- This is verylogical since when you try to become stronger and stronger out of own strength, you’ll eventually meet someone stronger while when you are ‘weak’ (humble, staying on the background etc), you bend when there is a too strong gust of wind. A strong tree can take a lot of wind but eventually it will break when the circumstances are too heavy.

This passage (some believe) is what led to Tai Chi Chuan. It is all about moving with chi, not against it.

TAO gives them life,
Virtue nurses them,
Matter shapes them,
Environment perfects them.
Therefore all things without exception worship Tao and
do homage to Virtue.
They have not been commanded to worship Tao and do
homage to Virtue,
But they always do so spontaneously.

(Ch.51)

- God gives people life and the Spirit cares for people. People are indeed 'shaped' by the world, through their culture and surroundings. If the Son (Jesus) is virtue, then the following things are alike:
- Jesus nurses - true ('come to me and I will give you rest. Come to me when you are wounded. Come to me and have eternal life. I give living water and my bread is the true bread).
- People pay homage to the Son. Yes true since Jesus did not ask people to worship him. He said 'worship the Father'. Jesus also said in John: the Father is greater than I am and I can do nothing without the Father. But people did give him thanks, paid him homage. Why? Because he served the people and was good for them. He humbled himself and went along with everyone, even the criminals. Therefore people worshipped indeed, God and paid thanks to the Son.

But virtue in Taoist thought is not seen as Jesus. It is seen as virtue. Just what it is.

THE Sage has no interests of his own,
But takes the interests of the people as his own. (Ch.49)

- Any prophet/ sage/ guru/ advisor who works not for his own motives but for the benefit of others from the heart, without desiring anything back, works for the Divine. His tree/ foundation is the Gods.

But the sage does not take foundation in a god. But takes the interests of the people as his own. This has nothing to do with working for the divine. It is just plain simple humility.

These are my findings on Taoism. Christianity is my main belief but I am not fundamentalistic. I just see a lot of similarities between the two believes. In my eyes, the Way in the two believes is the way to what Jesus said, preservation and life.

Here is the problem though. Taoists are not too interested in preservation and life. In fact, they are pretty indifferent to it. Basically, they try to be as natural as they can. If this means that they will be empathic, because they are naturally empathic, then they are one with Tao. But Taoism is MUCH more simpler than Christianity.

IF only I had the tiniest grain of wisdom,
I should walk in the Great Way,
And my only fear would be to stray from it.

The Great Way is very smooth and straight;

And yet the people prefer devious paths. (Ch. 53)

You forget though, that these devious paths could include christianity. Which gives Tao a name, clings to opposites, prizes words (the bible), etc...

I love Lao Tzu. I think he was an excellent enlightened person. When I compare it to the Bible, I really find nothing that goes against it.

Chris

I commend your efforts. I too believe that at the core of every religion is the same essence. However, I suggest you study more on the chinese culture befor you start comparing the writings.

One thing that I must stress, is that Taoism is a philosophy of simplicity. So to compare it to one of the most complex religions is very difficult. I wish you much luck in this endeavor.

[windcarver]

if you look there are many links between many religions, even some more less obvious ones. although those quotes you found were really interesting.