the Way (Buddhism, eternal, Buddhism, Zen, taoism)

[the_Unknown]

Hi.

There really is no need to introduce myself - what little I have to say should be enough.

Talking about taoism seems so redundant and useless.

Every question I can think of to ask the answer comes to me quickly.

Even the Tao Te Ching (a simple text to begin with) is nothing but reiteration after reiteration of the same principles.

It is so obvious everywhere and in everything.

It is the nature of reality.

Even at my work, a young rude and obnoxious girl notices it.

I remember her talking about why everything has to do with sex. A pencil into a pencil sharpener, a faucet spout that leaks water into the sink and down the drain, etc.

The Tao cannot be escaped or hidden.

Yet, here I am.

I do not follow the simplicity of taoism in my work, studies, art, or relations with people and I am miserable because of it.

Am I the same as a glutton who continues to stuff their face with food even though they bloat themselves?

Like a pervert who can't control his sexual nature?

Or like a perhaps a man who beats his wife simply because he can?

I really don't feel like I have much self control.

I don't know why I continue to do the things that I do even though I know it makes me miserable and that I shouldn't.

I wonder how long will I have to be miserable before I realize I'm on the path and not simply admiring it.

In the end, I suppose the answer will be found in nature.

You cannot force a flower to bloom - it does so when it is ready.

[Scarlett Wampus]

Ahh, 'The good that I would, I do not.' Greetings fellow human. I'm not meant to be posting but I couldn't resist...

Firstly, you sound depressed; it's the sense of fatalism in your post. It's quite possible that you are and that's worth keeping in mind. If so, what factors could have contributed to that I wonder? And what could be done about them? It would need to be addressed before anything else.

Secondly things are as they are and unfold as they do; yet they are not what we think they are or unfold as we expect them. In short, you're not a flower! Perhaps the Tao that seems so obvious isn't really so obvious, but it is always open. If you're feeling stuck let go of what you know and try something different.

Say some more about your situation.

[the_Unknown]

Depressions and fatalistic ideals are complexities I've moved beyond.

It's just that anything that can or will be expressed of the tao has already been done so many times.

Anything you can or do say is based on reality and because we share the same reality, you cannot offer anything 'new', 'fresh', 'original', 'creative' or any other pointless buzzword flying around.

What many people see as 'their life' is simply points on a graph that is reality.

Reality isn't where x and y intersect, but the intangiable substance behind the fact that x and y can apparently exist at all.

Where there is nothing there is something, and that something is nothing.

All is a cricle.
It begins where it ends.

The opposing extremes are so closely linked.

Fear and hope oppose one another.
When fear fails there is relief, but when hope fails there is despair.

Having fear or hope is to live, and to live is to die.

To succeed one must fail.
To fail, one must succeed.

The greatest anyone can ever achieve is to recognize the stalemate.
The worst anyone can ever achieve is to not recognize the stalemate.

I am as much a flower as I am not one.
As I am or am not anything.

All that can be done is to reiterate the Tao because the Tao is true.

It is not my situation but the situation.

[Master Vigil]

Have you looked into Zen Buddhism? Much of what you say follows very much in that aspect.

As for a Taoist perspective of what you are talking about, the only thing that comes to mind is a story I was told by my grandmaster several years ago. It goes somewhat like this...

Trees grow to immense sizes, and weeds only grow a little. But it's easy to kill a tree, and not so easy to kill a weed. Why is it harder to kill a nuisance than it is to kill something we need? Because Tao doesn't operate based on our needs or desires. It operates completely indifferent to us, and thus we need to operate indifferent to ourselves. And when we do, oneness will be achieved.

Not sure if that makes any sense, but it's what I thought of.

[the_Unknown]

Yes, indifference is the key.

Difficulty appears because of a lack of indifference.

Do not bother with names or any other means of classification or discrimination.

Look at everything as it really is: the same.

Do good to all and abandon the illusion of other paths.

Indifference is the key.

[Scarlett Wampus]

Indifference...I guess that's about right, though feeling somewhat indifferent about it.

This might be off the mark, but typically there is a period of transition from first becoming aware of the essential emptiness of things to maintaining and adjusting to life with that awareness. Previously things could seem like an endless game of chess compulsively played under the illusion that its possible to win. Then when neurotic suffering is (at least temporarily) ceased by abandoning the game, usually by accident or because it is realised as meaningless, the old psychic forces that could be relied upon to create some kind of motivation are undermined. Living without being driven like a slave by a tumultuous mind (and indeed, the over-mind of society) is like waking up in the same world yet everything is different, you have to start all over again.

If that wasn't enough old habits die hard, the commitment needed to 'put it all down' from one moment to the next (and forever) is considerable. Pointless going back, but going forward can be prevented through hesitation. This can end up a kind of apathetic limbo, and I'm told its common to give up during this (I certainly did for several years). Does this sound at all familiar?

Ran out of time, darn.

[the_Unknown]

Confusion.

The illusion of ying and yang creates it.

Reality is an infinite fractal of polaraties.

The fragmented self sees the fragmented reality.

The whole self sees the whole reality.

Yet polaraties mirror traits in one another.

So the whole self sees the fragmented self and
the fragmented self sees the whole self.

When balance is found the complete self is revealed in the comple reality - that which is truth.

Between hot and cold is warm.

It can always be infinitely hotter or infinitely colder.

Yet the fragmented self says this is hot or this is cold.

In truth, all is warm.

Whereever we are,
the fragmented self says,
there is high and low.

Yet whereever we are it can be infintely higher or infinitely lower.

In truth, all is on the same plane.

The fragmented self says this is full and this is empty.

Yet we can always find more and more to put into full things by compressing the contents.

And no matter how clean and empty we attempt to make things, there is still something there.

In truth there is no empty or full - there simply is.

Time is an illusion created by movement and space.

Movement is an illusion created by space.
Space is an illusion created by movement.

All differences or imbalances are illusions created by the illusion of an imbalanced self.

Errors are only errors to those who desire to see something else.
The desire creates the illusion.

Between ying and yang is truth.

Truth cannot change.

Otherwise it would be false.

By this virtue of truth
all of reality is revealed.

Revealed as truth.

Complete and unchanging.

Perfect and eternal.

[ChrisP]

What comes naturally is the way? you can become indifferent and observe the way, or you can do what comes naturally like feeling and loving and become one with it.

[Scarlett Wampus]

What comes naturally is the way. Hmmm. Indifference. Hmmm. I've lost the plot so I'm going to go off-topic.

ChrisP when I woke up this morning I was aware of a conflict. I didn't have the chance to get that much sleep and it was very cold in the house, so I wanted to go back to sleep and keep warm. I also had a great many things to do today, so I also wanted to get up and brave the cold. Now this difference of interests was real in as far as my mind was weighing up the pros and cons of a plan of action. It decided on getting up but made a mental note to get an early night.

Contrasting the above with the words of The Hsin Hsin Ming the state of my mind certainly did not seem in accordance with the way. However, as soon as the decision was made I could let go of the conflict and get down to work, and then it returned to a state more in accordance with the way.

I find that with sufficient meditation, or other undisturbed action, dual-mind collapses into one-mind and sense of conflict ceases. This is very good but conflict is bound to arise at some point because there are potentially endless deviations of the way, both within and without (though this division ceases to have meaning when dual-mind collapses of course). If this was not the case the way would not be endless itself. Anyway, to state that 'conflicts between longing and loathing are a disease of the mind' is quite useless unless action is taken to put an end to the disease. Continuous vigilance is required to bring the mind back to accordance with the way and sustain it there.

When someone of great skill does what they do they can give the impression of effortless action, as if the thing does itself, and this is what it can feel like to the person. What you don't see is the training that was required to get that Wu-Wei-like quality and the ongoing training that is required to maintain/expand it. For instance the apparent harmony, diversity, power and beauty of the living world is the result of millions of years of evolution by natural selection that is ongoing without end.

What concerned me was The_Unknown said he/she continued to do things that made them miserable. This I can definitely personally relate to, from moment to moment that is what I am trying to sort out yet I was mistaken in thinking I could enter into a useful dialogue about the practicalities of their situation, and so perhaps shed light on my own. Instead I was reminded of The_Unknown's original nature since they talk a lot of rubbish and so do I. 'Life is thus. Death is thus. Gata or no Gata, what's the fuss?' We are so all one.

So, that conflict is over and I can let it go and return to my lurker status i.e. doing some work.

[ChrisP]

S_W (man I'm glad you're around)

When you say dual-mind you are referring to heart and mind when they are seperated?

I agree with what you have said, my concern for Unknown is similar. Feeling is a natural part of being human and must be allowed to occur in the heart/mind. All things are of the Way, emotion included.