Taoism, A Potential 'New' Religion? (priest, tradition, beliefs, translation)

[Scarlett Wampus]

Healing/martial arts, meditation, I Ching divination/study and the Tao Te Ching continue to become more and more popular. Many 'westerners' call themselves Taoists now but the Taoism they are familiar with is usually quite different to the native Taoist traditions of China. I've read a lot of criticism over this, concerned that the impression many have of Taoism is inauthentic and/or undermines the value of traditional Taoism. Although I'm sympathetic to such arguments many people are obviously finding 'western' Taoism fulfills a genuine need in them while traditional Taoism can appear too alien or, I'm afraid to say, archaic & superstitious. There are many pockets of such people popping up all over the place that I think its only a matter of time before they start to bunch together in large enough networks to form some kind of organised western genus of Taoism. What do others think?

[ChrisP]

Originally Posted by Scarlett Wampus

Healing/martial arts, meditation, I Ching divination/study and the Tao Te Ching continue to become more and more popular. Many 'westerners' call themselves Taoists now but the Taoism they are familiar with is usually quite different to the native Taoist traditions of China. I've read a lot of criticism over this, concerned that the impression many have of Taoism is inauthentic and/or undermines the value of traditional Taoism. Although I'm sympathetic to such arguments many people are obviously finding 'western' Taoism fulfills a genuine need in while traditional Taoism can appear too alien or, I'm afraid to say, archaic & superstitious. There are many pockets of such people popping up all over the place that I think its only a matter of time before they start to bunch together in large enough networks to form some kind of organised western genus of Taoism. What do others think?

I think we call it Taoism, because that is how we were introduced to it, but having read the Tao, and looked at how Taoism is practiced in China we have realised that often the two are quite different. There is a lot of Bhuddism mixed in with Taoism in China now. But I do not call myself Taoist to the people I know as generally this is what they understand Taoism to be. Containing deities folklore etc. I just believe in one energy that manifests itself in 3 parts.

I just prefer to think of it as "the energy/life force/way of things" (usually the third of those) and not give it a name, which is why I do not have Taoism listed as my religion. Another more western way of explaining it is the Greek word Gnosis.

[cfer]

That's interesting. I've been trying to explore Taoism for a while, but I never seem to get very far. But now I'm wondering if the things I'm reading are authentic, or "true" Taoist writings.

Is there such a thing as "authentic Taoism"? Wouldn't Taosits view this evolution, if you will, as the natural progression of things? So, in a way, this "new" Taoism is very Taoist. Right?

[ChrisP]

Originally Posted by cfer

That's interesting. I've been trying to explore Taoism for a while, but I never seem to get very far. But now I'm wondering if the things I'm reading are authentic, or "true" Taoist writings.

Is there such a thing as "authentic Taoism"? Wouldn't Taosits view this evolution, if you will, as the natural progression of things? So, in a way, this "new" Taoism is very Taoist. Right?

Hehehe what is new, what is old? What is authentic? any idea is authentic regardless. Try not to dwell on the source of learning. The source of all is where all knowledge springs from after all.

WHEN all the world recognises beauty as beauty,
this in itself is ugliness.
When all the world recognises good as good, this in
itself is evil.

Indeed, the hidden and the manifest give birth

to each other.
Difficult and easy complement each other.
Long and short exhibit each other.
High and low set measure to each other.
Voice and sound harmonize each other.
Back and front follow each other.

Therefore, the Sage manages his affairs without ado,

And spreads his teaching without talking.
He denies nothing to the teeming things.
He rears them, but lays no claim to them.
He does his work, but sets no store by it.
He accomplishes his task, but does not dwell upon it.

And yet it is just because he does not dwell on it

That nobody can ever take it away from him.

New Taoism is generally philosophical based upon the writings of Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu. Chinese Taoism has various gods and other beliefs such as oracular divination (see I Ching)

I myself belive in divination, but that is neither here nor there regarding the search for understanding.

Taoism is about the interconnection of all things through the flow of energy or Tao. There are many different writings on this subject particularly in Hindi and Bhuddist religions. I find these are quite convoluted and overly complicated, whereas the Tao is simple. The world is simple so the way of things must be simple too.

Chinese Taoism has evolved into a collection of superstitions that certainly contains Taoism, but is no longer solely the province of the teachings of Lao Tzu. This is probably untrue of traditionalist Tai Chi practioners though.

[cfer]

Speaking of the I-Ching, is there a good resource for using it? I had a book from the library once, but it was pretty bad.

There's nothing special to have to buy to use it, is there?

I still think that if Taoism is to stay true to itself, it will evolve and incorporate that evolution into itself. Isn't the the philosophy behind wu wei?

[ChrisP]

Originally Posted by cfer

Speaking of the I-Ching, is there a good resource for using it? I had a book from the library once, but it was pretty bad.

There's nothing special to have to buy to use it, is there?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/159...books&v=glance

I have this one book ^^^ which is fairly (too bloody) comprehensive. Understanding the hexagrams, and the story behind their meaning is fairly important. At the end of the day it comes down to being able to open your mind and imagine possibilities. Whether the I Ching works or not to me is not important. It just allows me to think of solutions to my problems.

I still think that if Taoism is to stay true to itself, it will evolve and incorporate that evolution into itself. Isn't the the philosophy behind wu wei?

Sure is. I don't think wu wei or the Tao has anything to do with these guys though. http://www.thetao.info/tao/gods.htm

Although they all represent areas of humanity I know to be true, personification doesn't achieve any end but that of superstition. Everything has it's representation in reality without creating a fictional one.

[Scarlett Wampus]

Originally Posted by cfer

That's interesting. I've been trying to explore Taoism for a while, but I never seem to get very far. But now I'm wondering if the things I'm reading are authentic, or "true" Taoist writings.

Is there such a thing as "authentic Taoism"? Wouldn't Taosits view this evolution, if you will, as the natural progression of things? So, in a way, this "new" Taoism is very Taoist. Right?

ChrisP knocked it on the head straight away. I can see possible confusing arising though so perhaps it would be useful to make a distinction between Taoism as a thing-in-the-world and the ineffable Tao. You could argue that there is authentic and inauthentic Taoism, and it matters to people so it is right to respond to that. Yet with Tao its as ChrisP said, 'any idea is authentic regardless'. Reminds me of Bodhidharma, 'limitlessly open, nothing is sacred'.

If you're reading an English translation of a Taoist text then yeah, it is an authentic English translation of a Taoist text. If you're reading a book written by a Jesuit priest about the philosophy of Taoism then yeah, it is an authentic book on Taoist philosophy by a Jesuit priest.

I suppose to be inauthentic something or someone would have to resemble a traditionally Taoist thing inappropriately or in ignorance of its original significance. For instance, if you falsely claimed you were taught by a great Taoist Master to improve sales of your books and had little skill in or even knowledge of the Taoist arts. Another more forgivable example would be to decorate your flat with Taoist symbolism for show without any understanding of what it represented.

Again, the above is different to Tao, the very Way itself. In the past I've been left speechless by people who speak of Tao but behave appallingly to others. I would come away thinking, "How can they justify that?" Later I realised it was pointless to hold ideas about who or what was more 'Tao'. To hear it sounds so obvious yet I was confused for years. As Lao Tzu said, 'if you try to possess it, you will destroy it'.

[Master Vigil]

From my studies with religious Taoists, the western understanding is very disrespectful to their tradition. To philosophical Taoists, they often say one thing that sticks in my mind...

"The Tao never stops for one second, why then should a Taoist?"

So with that thought in mind, why then should Taoism?

[ChrisP]

Originally Posted by Master Vigil

From my studies with religious Taoists, the western understanding is very disrespectful to their tradition. To philosophical Taoists, they often say one thing that sticks in my mind...

"The Tao never stops for one second, why then should a Taoist?"

So with that thought in mind, why then should Taoism?

This is why I prefer not to be known as a Taoist, though the Tao te Ching is my life guide.

Taoism has had 4000ish years to evolve. All religion's have changed over time.