Competition (evolution, creation, taoism)

[cfer]

How, in your opinion, does Taoism view competition, such as sporting events and such? Recreational competition isn't really part of the natural order of things. Is there a distinction between recreational competition and competition for, say, the basic needs we have (food, shelter, clothing, etc.) as seen through Taoism?

[Scarlett Wampus]

Hard to say what the natural order of things is! That old Tao cannot be spoken thing.

[Master Vigil]

I'd say we as human animals are "naturally" competitive.

[Jaymes]

"Fill your bowl to the brim
and it will spill.
Keep sharpening your knife
and it will blunt.
Chase after money and security
and your heart will never unclench.
Care about people's approval
and you will be their prisoner."

If someone plays sports for the pure joy of playing sports I don't think the above bit would apply to it... it's only when you desire to be above everyone else that it starts getting iffy.

[Adam Hockworth]

Play is a very important thing to humans, as well as to many animals... like dogs and cats. I think friendly competition is good for the soul, and is completely natural. Evolution ocurred because of natural selection, and how would natural selection work? Most likely by selecting the winner of the competition. So yes, competition is in accord with the Tao.. but not too much yin, and not too much yang..

Thesis, Antithesis = Synthesis

[cfer]

Originally Posted by Jensa

If someone plays sports for the pure joy of playing sports I don't think the above bit would apply to it... it's only when you desire to be above everyone else that it starts getting iffy.

So, in order to be in line with the Tao, we have to better ourselves for the sake of ourselves, not to be above anyone else?

Take Michael Jordan, for example. If (and that's a big if, because I don't know) he practiced all that time to be the best -- for himself and not money, fame, etc. -- then it's in accord with the Tao? And if he was in it for the money and fame, it's not in accordance with the Tao? Is that what you're saying?

Thanks for all your answers, by the way. This is very informative!

[Jaymes]

I'd say yes. The Tao Te Ching describes the ancient Taoist masters as this: " They were careful
as someone crossing an iced-over stream. Alert as a warrior in enemy territory. Courteous as a guest. Fluid as melting ice. . . The Master doesn't seek fulfillment. Not seeking, not expecting, she is present, and can welcome all things."

Which brings up the question "are we supposed to strive to be like this?" I don't know. Maybe MV, Anders, or one of the other Taoists on the board could give their opinions on this?

[ChrisP]

Originally Posted by Jensa

I'd say yes. The Tao Te Ching describes the ancient Taoist masters as this: " They were careful
as someone crossing an iced-over stream. Alert as a warrior in enemy territory. Courteous as a guest. Fluid as melting ice. . . The Master doesn't seek fulfillment. Not seeking, not expecting, she is present, and can welcome all things."

Which brings up the question "are we supposed to strive to be like this?" I don't know. Maybe MV, Anders, or one of the other Taoists on the board could give their opinions on this?

I don't think we should strive to be anything. Formless as the Tao, should be our guide. When I'm meditating the best way to quickly sink into the deeper state, is to make my mind and heart truly without effort. i.e nothing happening at all, except for objective observation.

If we can achieve effortlessness in thought and heart action should follow accordingly. This sounds like how the masters are described in the passage you quoted. A good writing that brought this home to me was by Chuang Tzu and is located here : http://www.taoism.net/chuang/monkeys.htm

Silly Monkeys

[The Black Whirlwind]

i think it depends on this; do you follow the way of the open palm, or the closed fist?

[Master Vigil]

Originally Posted by cfer

So, in order to be in line with the Tao, we have to better ourselves for the sake of ourselves, not to be above anyone else?

Take Michael Jordan, for example. If (and that's a big if, because I don't know) he practiced all that time to be the best -- for himself and not money, fame, etc. -- then it's in accord with the Tao? And if he was in it for the money and fame, it's not in accordance with the Tao? Is that what you're saying?

Thanks for all your answers, by the way. This is very informative!

He who knows when he has enough is rich. He who knows when he is finished, is full. To compete is natural. But to compete for selfish reasons is against simplicity and humility. It's that simple.