How do you perceive Tao? (ritual, spiritual, verse, taoism)

[michel]

Originally Posted by Master Vigil

Actually, have you ever read the Tao Te Ching? The point is, the Tao is simple. It is the world that we "think" is too complicated. Putting it in paradoxes shows how stupid we are for thinking it is complex. And that helps us to have a better understanding of how simple it really is.

Ouch, still trying to get my mind round the basics, please don't confuse me more!

[scitsofreaky]

Actually, have you ever read the Tao Te Ching? The point is, the Tao is simple. It is the world that we "think" is too complicated. Putting it in paradoxes shows how stupid we are for thinking it is complex. And that helps us to have a better understanding of how simple it really is.

Here is a problem with making things "simple": what is simple for some, is complicated for another, and vice versa. So, whose simplification is right?

[Finnyhaha]

Here is a problem with making things "simple": what is simple for some, is complicated for another, and vice versa. So, whose simplification is right?

Can you give an example?

[Lloyd]

One thing about taoism, and a lot of other schools of far Eastern thought is that simple doesn't mean easy and complicated doesn't mean challenging.

Within such schools the easy way out is to just read more and "connect more dots" so to speak. On the other hand thought should become simpler and simpler, so much so that it is a great challenge to do further simplify. That's what makes Tao so interesting. If you don't understand it, reading more is only going to be the starting point. Ultimately, in order to understand the material one must let it go and set aside complex thought.

Cultivation of mind ultimately is a process of simplification of mind. It is recognizing that wise sayings are only tools along the way. They're not imbued with any truth or special power. Ultimately one sees that all the sayings of the great sages are just empty words, even though those sayings are just as wise as they have always been.

[Master Vigil]

I always understood that "reading more" would be the opposite of simplifying yourself. Words are not seen as emtpy, only finite and imperfect. Taoism is about necessity, not completely simplifying yourself. It is about being as simple as you should be. Which is why the point of simplicity varies from person to person. It would do so naturally, because that is the way it is.

[scitsofreaky]

Originally Posted by Finnyhaha

Can you give an example?

I will try. For me, spiral dynamics is a simplified veiw of psychological development. But to someone else, it could be considered very complicated because it involves the meshing of many different levels, and the explainations of the levels and how they mesh can get "complicated." In some ways understanding of the subject will change how complicated something seems.
Also, something can be so simplified that it starts to lose all meaningfulness. For example, saying that spirit/toa is energy (and I mean that they are the same thing) means that spirit brings as much meaning to our lives as energy. Even though energy is what makes up everything (and I've always wondered if they will ever discover that energy is made of something), it does not necessarily bring any meaning to our lives. And I would say for me that for me this is most assuredly true.

[Truthtraveler]

The essence of what is Tao is “inevitably misunderstood” by most people, but it is possible to understand it. Lao Tzu himself (in one translation I love) wrote, in The Tao Te Ching, Chapter 20, that he himself had “acquired Tao,” which is what made him different from most people.

We all have the potential Lao Tzu within us…and the inherent potential to know full truth!

[Master Vigil]

it does not necessarily bring any meaning to our lives.

But this is not because it is meaningless. People have just forgot, or have not yet realized the meaning.

[Finnyhaha]

Lao Tzu himself (in one translation I love) wrote, in The Tao Te Ching, Chapter 20, that he himself had “acquired Tao,” which is what made him different from most people.

We all have the potential Lao Tzu within us…and the inherent potential to know full truth!

I love it when concepts from different religious traditions sound so similar to one another. Is it just me or does this sound a lot like the Buddah and the acquirement of nirvana?

[telecino]

I like to think that the definition of Tao is allways accurate, for it travels with the traveller, it evolves with the evolver. At a point in life, i would perceive the tao as the ultimate set of laws that bind the univers, later i would perceive it as the juice/stuff/goo/energy that is binded and working in action, at another time, i saw the intelligence of the creator, that Tao being his thought.

At any point, when observing the concept of the Tao, it's definition is allways accurate, since from the point of view where i stand here and now, the words i use to conceptualize the Tao are the correct words for the experience i am having right now with the Tao, knowing that the undefinable Tao is more. Some say that because the tao cannot be defined by a conceptual wording of it's definition, that it automatically nulifies any definition that we seek of it, preventing ourselves from discovering an aspect of it if you only accepted that we can define one specific view of the Tao without pretending having defined it nor concluded on it's final definition for ourfleve forever.

Availability of the opened mind is necessary on the path to enlightenment, to allow one self to integrate the knowledge of the human experience by accepting the definition of a concept attached to an experience so we can gain knowledge of it, while still being humble enought to allow this definition to change, or totally nullify itself from the point of view of another experience. Knowledge is gained one aspect at a time.

I prefer beleiving that i am on a path to gain knowledge of myself one facet at a time, instead of being on a path where i have to accept i will never understand a thing at all. Why would i be here if i could not be here? Did the Buddha say "i don't understand, i just got a flash!", or does he encourage to seek knowledge AND become enlightened on the path?

In my opinion, the human mental ego, afraid of the unknown, uses premade answers like "forget it, it can't be defined" so he would not have to face the fact that he has the rest of the universe to discover, and this is scaring the **** out of him. The essence of the Tao is creation and transformation, it is implicit that, even on the intellectual level, its very defenition would change between two glances at it; refusing both definitions resulting of both glances would end up in knowing nothing more about one-self that before the glancing at the Tao. Accepting the two definitions expands your consciousness, and the ability for your mind to accept things of the spirit, and encourages you to keep glancing.

Seeking the void is not fleeing in denial of intelligence. Allowing the mind to take place in the process will grant us his collaboration at the moment of no-mind. Play with your mind, shuffle those definitions wildly and declare them true, and then contemplate peacefully the beautyful undefined Tao.