Inner Nature (creation, hell, experience, philosophy)

[cfer]

Does everything have Inner Nature?

I've kind of got a question concerning both Inner Nature and P'u.

In the "Tao of Pooh", P'u is described as "the principle...that things in their original simplicity contain their own natural power, power that is easily spoiled or lost when that simplicity is changed."

Does that mean that when we make a chair out of wood, that the wood has lost it's natural power? How does the chair gain it's Inner Nature, then?

Does this have something to do with the Tao being in a constant state of change, or never being able to add or subtract from the the Tao?

When a tree becomes a chair, does the tree cease to be a tree but become a chair, thus changing the Inner Nature of the tree to that of a chair?

How about a car? It's made of many different things; metal, cloth, plastic, etc. Does P'u only apply to living things? I don't believe that because Toaist philosophy believes that everything is made up of the Tao, living or not. So to me that means that everything has P'u and Inner Nature.

When we combine different elements to form steel, the individual elements lose their state of being, or P'u, but gain P'u as something else entirely. Is that assumption correct?

[Ghostdog]

Hehehe...thats great...i wish i could be winnie the pooh and grab that little red balloon and fly up into the sky.
Have you read the book about the seagull..damn i cant remember what the name is.

This question of change is fascinating, the one thing that changes when the tree is cut down to become a chair, is the beautiful life that made the leaves and fruit from the living tree has withdrawn. Its a bit like us (walking trees ) when the life leaves our bodies we fall down. now if you want to mummify me and keep me as a chair then so be it......but you can see the life has gone out of me.
Now the question of nature, is that not the same as life. But are you looking at the nature of the car with its functioning parts and beautiful machine as a point from who made it...
Its a creation of a person so it is limited within this field of the brain or mind like a picture of a beautiful woman painted with great love. Yes it may be a great picture but it really has no life or Nature, unlike the real woman who it was painted of.

I suppose you can say that about poeple too.....You were given a name and you are your own experience through every day of your life but the question is what is real and what is imagined, i dont know if you have noticed but i am beginning to....most of our lives are so locked up in our thoughts and imagination that we rarely see things as they really are and are so conditioned by are mental reactions that we are rarely trully free.
Its like the picture and the real.....we are lost in the picture (in our minds) and therefore we are not really seeing whats real in front of our eyes without the moniter chatting away in our heads.
Have you ever looked a a beautiful night sky or a great sun set or a beautiful animal...too trully see it you have to be still, but most of us are naming (mentally) it or capturing it or saying what species it is or where it comes from and so on......

Sorry i may have gone of on a tangent to your question but what the hell ....winnie the pooh does that too...........and as you beautifully quoted (who needs to be precise)
Please share your thoughts on this

[linwood]

Have you read the book about the seagull..damn i cant remember what the name is.

Jonathan Livingston Seagull?

Excellent book.

Hello Ghostdog, nise to meet you.

[Master Vigil]

I think a great Koan can be used to answer your question with a question.

What was the tree before it was a tree? A seed. What was it before it was a seed? and so on and so forth...

Inner nature changes. The key to understanding P'u is understanding that even that state of simplicity changes. You shouldn't try to stop that change, but instead, not to make it change. The concept of P'u is to let "change" govern your inner nature. You don't want your inner nature, to govern the "change." So with the tree, it has its inner nature. When we change it and make it a chair, it doesn't do it by itself. This is when humans can get off balance. If a chair is not needed, than there is no need to make the tree into a chair, but we do it anyway because we think ourselves better and in charge of the trees inner nature. When water flows, it isn't in charge of where its going, but it gets there effortlessly. That is P'u. We change, we always change. But P'u is us letting the change happen, over complicating things makes us mess up our inner nature. Does that make sense?

[cfer]

That koan was pretty cool.

So, according to Taoists, a chair can have inner nature. Correct? And change controls its inner nature, not the other way around?

So how good is Taosim for this modern day and age? We've got major industries affecting all of nature. We build houses to live in, cutting down wood for lumber, making different kinds of metals for various devices, frames and such, and reroute water to force it to flow into our houses. So we affect the inner nature of things on a daily basis.

Is there a way to counteract this? How do Taoists live in the modern age? Of course, I know that Taoists believe that they would have to adapt (change) to the way the modern world is. But how does technology, industry and progress affect the nature of things around us?

[Master Vigil]

Correct. A taoist operates on necessity. Is it necessary for Industries to use up natural resources to make money? No. Is it necessary for thousands of trees to get cut down? No. Is it necessary for land to be plowed and destroyed to build buildings and houses? No. Ancient taoist temples were built around trees, in caves, etc... Nature is number one to a taoist. Google Wudang mountain and see some awesome taoist temples. I make almost everything I have. I rarely buy anything if I can make it. And am probably going to get rid of my car and just have a bike. Simplicity is how a taoist lives. But necessity is how we operate. So if where you live it is necessary to have clean water, a car to get to work, a house, etc... Yes, we change. I just suggest buying a house that has already been built. Don't go cutting down woods to build your own. Or if you want to build your own, use the natural landscape with the design of the house. Like fallingwater in Pennsylvania.

[sage]

Simply put, everything, living or not, possesses its own "inner nature," and energy. The level or strength of energy and the kind of inner nature depends on the object and other variables involved (purpose, etc...)

When objects are made from other objects, their inner nature and energy is, of course, shifted. In your example, the chair does not retain all the inner nature qualities of the tree. The inner nature of the chair is very different now.

Essentially -- inner nature is constantly flowing and changing. The key is to embrace this, and appreciate it, rather than defying the flow and forcing anything.

I also read the Tao Of Pooh, and enjoyed it very much.

[Master Vigil]

Welcome to the forums Sage!!! Have you posted an introductory thread in the intro section?

[sage]

No, I haven't. I will right now though. Thanks, Master Vigil, you seem to be a very knowledgeable individual. I hope to learn a lot.

[Master Vigil]

We are all students, and we are all teachers. I am sure we will learn much from each other.