Suffering is wonderful!!!! (Earth, Buddhism, grace, experience, grace)

[Master Vigil]

Welcome disgrace as a pleasant surprise.
Prize calamities as your own body.
Why should we "welcome disgrace as a pleasant surprise"?
Because a lowly state is a boon.
Getting it is a pleasant surprise, and so is losing it.
Why should we "prize calamities as our own body"?
Because our body is the very source of our calamities.
If we have no body, what calamities can we have?

Chapter 13, Tao Teh Ching

What do you think?

[michel]

I think that's very true, Master Vigil, that indeed is wisdom. Applying it to day to day life might be a little harder!
Actually, in a way, that 'slots in' with my principle that you cannot appreaciate 'good times' without having been through 'bad times'. If every one on Earth was beautiful, beauty would be boring.

[cfer]

And there's also something beautiful in those things that aren't considered "beautiful" by societal standards.

Of course, beauty IS only skin deep!

[robtex]

I am going to argue with the quote. Taoism puts a heavy emphasis in letting go of the self which includes the ego. To be disgraced is to have ones ego rubbed and one who exits and lives within the way (the tao) and who is working on his union, spirtually with the universe should have trangressed his/her ego. To acknowledge disgrace on any level is to pay homage on ones ego..and ego is a personal attachement to the self that is in discourge with ones harmoneous existance within the universe.

The second part I concur with under taoist terms as attachament to ones body is detachement from the universe and the way as I have come to understand it.

[Master Vigil]

Taoism doesn't put as much emphasis on the detachment concept as buddhism does. I big point in that passage is the line that says "getting it is a pleasant surprise, and so is losing it." This to a taoist allows us to recognize that we are not to choose which side is better or worse than the other. Like the taoist stories where something bad happens to the man, and his neighbor comes out and says "what a horrible situation." And the man says something like "It isn't horrible, it isn't good." And then something good happens because of the previous bad thing. And the neighbor comes over and says "What a great situation." And the man says "It isn't great, it isn't horrible." And then something horrible happens because of the great thing, and so on and so forth. While a buddhist would worry about getting detached from the self completely. A taoist realises that the self, is what connects us to everything. And the fact that our body is what causes our suffering, just makes it clear that suffering is natural. And because it is natural, it is nothing to fear. Did that make any sense at all?

[michel]

[PART QUOTE=robtex] To be disgraced is to have ones ego rubbed and one who exits and lives within the way (the tao) and who is working on his union, spirtually with the universe should have trangressed his/her ego. To acknowledge disgrace on any level is to pay homage on ones ego..and ego is a personal attachement to the self that is in discourge with ones harmoneous existance within the universe.
[/quote]Isn't that actually good for us, in a way ? otherwise your ego might not fit through doors!

[sage]

I agree with Michel's original reply. If every action or experience was "GOOD," then we would not truly appreciate how "GOOD" it was, as we would not be aware that worse experience could occur.

We need "BAD" in order for "GOOD" to work. We need both yin and yang.

[Master Vigil]

Originally Posted by sage

I agree with Michel's original reply. If every action or experience was "GOOD," then we would not truly appreciate how "GOOD" it was, as we would not be aware that worse experience could occur.

We need "BAD" in order for "GOOD" to work. We need both yin and yang.

Ah, but for a taoist, it is seen as neither good nor bad. For the yin yang concept applies to everything. Everything has in itself, humans concept of good or bad. And I would take that concept even further and say that the concepts of good and bad only exist within the minds of humans. So the experience or action is neutral. We are the ones that put the good or bad title to them.

[sage]

I agree with you to an extent, Master Vigil. Not only do human minds label events or situations "good" or "bad."

Certainly, when an animal gets injured, he or she realizes the experience is negative and painful. In contrast, when an animal catches dinner, it is content.

The concept of "good" and "bad" originate from ...... what?
What brings pain and sorrow and what brings joy and happiness perhaps.

How does one avoid pain and sorrow? Even the most devout taoists surely encounter difficulties in which even they cannot avoid feeling negatively about.

[Master Vigil]

Our perception is what causes good or bad. The actions and situations that are being perceived are neutral. (Which is why 2 people can have opposite opinions on situations.) A taoist try to look at it as neutral and unbiased as possible, for all things are tao. Why should we choose what is beneficial, and what is not? For something that seems beneficial now, could indeed not be in the long run. The natural world is more balanced than we are. We should allow nature to teach us.