Suffering is wonderful!!!! (Earth, Buddhism, grace, experience, grace)

[sage]

I see your point, and it seems to make more sense. So, the results of the situation can be seen either good or bad or whatever. Thanks.

[Master Vigil]

Indeed, and a taoist would view the two as extremes, and unbalanced. Thus, they would view them neutrally.

[Pardus]

It is hard to see another suffering without doing something about it.

[Jaymes]

This is why I really want to learn to read Chinese... the only translation I have available to me at the moment says something just about completely different!

Which translation is the one you posted from, MV?

[michel]

Originally Posted by Pardus

It is hard to see another suffering without doing something about it.

Very good point. Fruballs to you!

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Master Vigil

Welcome disgrace as a pleasant surprise.
Prize calamities as your own body.
Why should we "welcome disgrace as a pleasant surprise"?
Because a lowly state is a boon.
Getting it is a pleasant surprise, and so is losing it.
Why should we "prize calamities as our own body"?
Because our body is the very source of our calamities.
If we have no body, what calamities can we have?

Chapter 13, Tao Teh Ching

What do you think?

I think it makes a whole lot of sense. It's very much along the lines of my own beliefs -- that we can't appreciate good health without having experienced illness or pain. There must be opposition in all things for us to progress. Also, our physical bodies are a wonderful creation, not something we just happen to be burdened with.

[michel]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

I think it makes a whole lot of sense. It's very much along the lines of my own beliefs -- that we can't appreciate good health without having experienced illness or pain. There must be opposition in all things for us to progress. Also, our physical bodies are a wonderful creation, not something we just happen to be burdened with.

I think this goes further, and can include every aspect of our lives; hapiness, joy....without experiencing the troughs, we would never appreciate the peaks.

[scitsofreaky]

In my world, there is no good or evil. I have not worked in those concepts for over three decades. In the most accurate sense, there are only gradations of "good

There is no such thing as only good. Alfred Whitehead put it in a way I like(paraphrasing): the Universe is a wave, it consists of troughs and crests, and to destroy either is to destroy the universe.
But good and evil are human labels, or boundaries. Nature does not know good nor evil, it just is.

Because our body is the very source of our calamities.
If we have no body, what calamities can we have?

Excellent. Tonight when I get home I'll get some quotes from the book I'm reading (No Boundaries by Ken WIlber).

[Pardus]

Originally Posted by michel

Very good point. Fruballs to you!

Yeah i just wouldn't mind one of these guys giving their opinion on the subject.

It's pretty much where i see a grey area with taoism, i do understand that the individual must atleast be seeking help, i also believe if you help other people your life will eventually get better because of the improvement in your environment.

What do you guys think?

[Master Vigil]

Many have missed the point. The passage is not talking about overcoming obstacles, or better knowing the good by experiencing the bad. It is showing that we can be content with no matter what happens. It also shows how taoists do not view things in "good or evil." Because those concepts only exist within the mind. What I take from the passage is that people have so much stress because of their calamaties, when it is completely unneeded. And this concept can allow for stress to be relieved, and peace to be attained.

Pardus brought up a point about doing something about suffering. While that has little to do with the passage, it isn't anti taoist to "do something" about suffering. Taoists do only what is natural and necessary. As human animals, it is natural for us to be empathic, and care about other people. It is also natural for us to help other people. That is very taoist.

Jensa, I used the Shambhala publication translated by John C. H. Wu.