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  #51  
Old 10-04-2012, 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by idav View Post
I think that tao is a more basic form of where consciousness stems from. Though it is more like experiencing without giving thought to it, simply being.
More on Wuji (The Infinite, unmanifest) and Taiji (The Supreme Ultimate, way of manifestation) can be found here: Explanation of the Diagram of the Supreme Ultimate (Taiji)
Tao is the way. The way is expressed differently according to the setting.
Notice how the Tao is expressed with consciousness as the Tao of man. (My favorite quote from above linked document)
Therefore it is said, "In establishing the Tao of Heaven yin and yang are spoken of; in establishing the Tao of Earth the soft and the hard are spoken of; in establishing the Tao of man humanity (love) and righteousness are spoken of." And again, "[The Book of Changes] traces things to their origin in the beginning and back again to their final end; therefore it understands life and death.
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  #52  
Old 10-06-2012, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by ben d View Post
Yes, that's the irony referred to, the conceptual language used in the post was an expedient in the attempt to convey that so long as there is a 'you' who is attempting to attain something, then there is an implication of duality and the seeker is separate from that sought!

If you don't understand then let's leave it at that, cheers and all the best!
No dear, I get it. It's like the apparent but not actual contradiction in Buddhism where, to attain nirvana one must be free of desire, including the desire to attain nirvana.

What strikes me as funny is your repeatedly admonishing people to stop the striving that creates duality when you are so obviously striving yourself.
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  #53  
Old 10-06-2012, 04:57 PM
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What strikes me as funny is your repeatedly admonishing people to stop the striving that creates duality when you are so obviously striving yourself.
You are mistaken dear sweet lilithu, there is a difference between using conceptual language as an expedient to teach people that conceptual reality is not the actual reality for which the concepts represent, and using conceptual language in the misunderstanding that it is the same thing as the reality for which it represents.

Take Lao Tzus's Tao Teh Ching (TR. by S. Mitchell) for example, in the first paragraph it says..

The Tao that can be spoken of is not the Eternal Tao
The name that can be named is not the eternal Name.
The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin of all particular things.
Free from desire, you realize the mystery.
Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.


The bolded lines shows where the cause of the fall from non-duality originates,...conceptualization of the perceived manifestations of the non-dual Tao.

Now since there are 81 verses of conceptual language in the Tao Teh Ching concerning the non-conceptual non-dual Tao and its illusionary multiplicity, are you going to admonish Lao Tzu for striving to teach/admonish people not to mistake the manifestation for the mystery of the non-dual unnamed Tao?

So do in future please try to be aware of the nuance involved when this subject is being discussed!
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  #54  
Old 10-08-2012, 07:53 PM
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Red face

Another translation from D. C. Lau may be beneficial to the discussion here:

"The nameless was the beginning of heaven and earth;
The named was the mother of the myriad creatures.
Hence always rid yourself of desires in order to observe its secrets;
But always allow yourself to have desires in order to observe its manifestations.
These two are the same
But diverge in name as they issue forth. (Lao Tzu 1)

Certain doctrines call for the cessation of all desires to enter the non-duel state of mind, but it seems that philosophical Taoism incorporates 'desire' itself as a manifestation of the non-duel Tao. It seems to be one of the main differences with Buddhist philosophy. There is no ego-death is Taoism. It's more a matter of developing awareness to the point that the 'ego' finds its proper place in the flow of things. It's important to let go of desire in order to cultivate the non-duel mind, but there's no contradiction in allowing simple natural desires to manifest as they are just as equally an extension of the Tao. Does a complete non-duality permit desire?
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Last edited by Straw Dog; 10-08-2012 at 07:55 PM..
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  #55  
Old 10-08-2012, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Straw Dog View Post
Another translation from D. C. Lau may be beneficial to the discussion here:

"The nameless was the beginning of heaven and earth;
The named was the mother of the myriad creatures.
Hence always rid yourself of desires in order to observe its secrets;
But always allow yourself to have desires in order to observe its manifestations.
These two are the same
But diverge in name as they issue forth. (Lao Tzu 1)

Certain doctrines call for the cessation of all desires to enter the non-duel state of mind, but it seems that philosophical Taoism incorporates 'desire' itself as a manifestation of the non-duel Tao. It seems to be one of the main differences with Buddhist philosophy. There is no ego-death is Taoism. It's more a matter of developing awareness to the point that the 'ego' finds its proper place in the flow of things. It's important to let go of desire in order to cultivate the non-duel mind, but there's no contradiction in allowing simple natural desires to manifest as they are just as equally an extension of the Tao. Does a complete non-duality permit desire?
Straw Dog, you seem to always cover so much when you post, so here's just a few observations fwiw.

Non-duality (unnamed/non-conceptual Tao) doesn't permit or not permit anything, it's beyond all duality...it is the underlying Unity of the conceptual One or Tao which differentiates into the Ying and Yang complementary opposite pair. But be aware of the nuance always, for in fact conceptualized Non-duality and Duality are themselves a complementary opposite pair (Ying and Yang) in the context of the unnamed or non-conceptual Tao. From the unnamed Tao comes the one (named Tao), from the one the two (Ying and Yang) and from the three (named Tao, Ying and Yang) come the ten thousand things.

The concept of 'desire' is just another word that implies a dualsitic mind that functions on a subject and object basis, i.e. one that desires/conceives/thinks/etc. and the object of such desires, thoughts, etc..

There is a transcension of ego, not the death of, like the boy who gives up his boy toys when he he discovers girls, there is much more to consciousness than ego subject - object perception of reality, and it will unfold naturally and effortlessly when and as the higher faculty develops.
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  #56  
Old 10-08-2012, 10:28 PM
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Yeah, there is a transcendence of ego required in order to abide in the way of things as they are. Consciousness and the objects of consciousness arise together. There is no real separation between desire and the objects of desire. They differ only in name as they issue forth. I don't believe in yin and yang. There is only yin-yang. How can they be separated? Perhaps we agree more than we disagree, but how would we know it?
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Last edited by Straw Dog; 10-08-2012 at 10:32 PM..
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  #57  
Old 10-08-2012, 11:03 PM
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Yeah, there is a transcendence of ego required in order to abide in the way of things as they are. Consciousness and the objects of consciousness arise together. There is no real separation between desire and the objects of desire. They differ only in name as they issue forth. I don't believe in yin and yang. There is only yin-yang. How can they be separated? Perhaps we agree more than we disagree, but how would we know it?
Discernment. Knowing things for what they are. The other side of the "desire coin," so to speak.

To clarify: you see what actually is, and not just the data run through the like/dislike filter.
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Last edited by crossfire; 10-08-2012 at 11:11 PM.. Reason: added clarifying statement
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  #58  
Old 10-08-2012, 11:30 PM
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Discernment. Knowing things for what they are. The other side of the "desire coin," so to speak.

To clarify: you see what actually is, and not just the data run through the like/dislike filter.
Yeah, like two sides to the same coin. I cannot literally 'see' things as they are. I can only let things be as they are without judging them. Reality is more complicated than I might like to presume. It's probably best to let reality rest as it is without producing any 'absolute' concepts of it. Abiding in that which facilitates one's original nature prevents getting lost in aberations caused by attachments to conceptualizations.
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  #59  
Old 10-08-2012, 11:47 PM
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Yeah, like two sides to the same coin. I cannot literally 'see' things as they are. I can only let things be as they are without judging them. Reality is more complicated than I might like to presume. It's probably best to let reality rest as it is without producing any 'absolute' concepts of it. Abiding in that which facilitates one's original nature prevents getting lost in aberations caused by attachments to conceptualizations.
Well you still have to live and interact with reality. You have to correctly discern an obstacle as being "hard" so you can overcome the obstacle with "soft." (Counterintuitive to the desire-based way of overcoming "hard" with "harder.")
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  #60  
Old 10-11-2012, 09:30 PM
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Well you still have to live and interact with reality. You have to correctly discern an obstacle as being "hard" so you can overcome the obstacle with "soft." (Counterintuitive to the desire-based way of overcoming "hard" with "harder.")
Unless we desire a soft solution or desire to simplify our desires.

It seems that notions such as 'non-duality' can potentially cause thinking to become very uptight. It implies a 'duality' in contrast, which may lend itself to thinking 'duality' is bad and 'non-duality' is good. At least, this is a pitfall for people prone to heavy thinking like me. I'd rather just forget duality vs. non-duality and let that which is be and become that which is. All attempts to enforce what we consider 'good' are flawed contrivances.
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