shia (followers, prophet, God, muslims, islam)

[AbuQuteiba]

Just another point i would like to make clear. A lot of Muslims do not know the difference between general rulings, and specific rulings. It is very important for one to understand this concept, since it is one of the main reasons of confusion among Muslims.

There is a difference between me saying "those who say that Salaat is not obligatory, are kuffaar" and "Ahmed (for instance) is a kaafir, because he says it is not obligatory for one to pray". I know. It seems to be the same. It looks like A+B=C. But it does't work like that in Sharee'a. The difference is that, it has been established in Islam that claiming that prayer is not obligatory, is a reason for kufr. So there is no doubt that claiming that what Allaah has made obligatory, not obligatory, is a reason of kufr. But you cannot establish that Ahmed is a kaafir, because Allaah 'azza wa jal may lead him to the truth, later on.

The same goes for the topic at hand. When i say that the scholars of the shi'a are kuffaar, in general, I'm not naming anybody specific.

The only ones that have been given can make specific takfeer, are the rulers/ those in charge of the Ummah (the rulers and the scholars). Allaah 'azza wa jal said: "O you who believe! obey Allaah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allaah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allaah and the last day; That is best, and most suitable for final determination"[4.59] .

Wallaahu a'lam. Wassalaamu 'alaikum.

[yirme]

Originally Posted by yousaf

a scholar of shia is normally aperson who understands the beliefs of shias and teaches them. a person who teaches wrong beliefs . under normal circumstances teaches against sunnis thhey are called kaafirs , so abu qutaiba is right in what he said and you are right in some parts of what you said

peace,
i suppose this is in the sunni section, and from a sunni standpoint, the shia scholars might be considered kaffirs by some, but i disagree and consider it prejudice and slander on a large group of people, regardless of who said it. perhaps i consider kaffir a more harsh word than other muslims. but i am weary to use it since i do not know people's intentions, i cannot read their hearts except by the will of God.
i just do not think it is appropriate to call someone a kaffir if they follow the teachings of the quran/prophets, i do not know all the shia scholars personally, but i am guessing that some follow the quran quite well. of course we are also told that in the end times there will be many wicked scholars, not limited to shia.
i need a bumper sticker that says 'wicked scholars suck'

may Allah forgive all of us from our many sins and soften our hearts to nourish the seeds of light that have been planted within us.

wa salaam

[yousaf]

Originally Posted by yirme

peace,
i suppose this is in the sunni section, and from a sunni standpoint, the shia scholars might be considered kaffirs by some, but i disagree and consider it prejudice and slander on a large group of people, regardless of who said it. perhaps i consider kaffir a more harsh word than other muslims. but i am weary to use it since i do not know people's intentions, i cannot read their hearts except by the will of God.
i just do not think it is appropriate to call someone a kaffir if they follow the teachings of the quran/prophets, i do not know all the shia scholars personally, but i am guessing that some follow the quran quite well. of course we are also told that in the end times there will be many wicked scholars, not limited to shia.
i need a bumper sticker that says 'wicked scholars suck'

may Allah forgive all of us from our many sins and soften our hearts to nourish the seeds of light that have been planted within us.

wa salaam

brother are you a scholar ? borther the reason why they(shia) scholars are known as kaafir is because many of thier major beliefs contradict the teaches of the prophet

[Halcyon]

Forgive me, but I have been told that the only requisite for being a Muslim believing that there is no God but Allah and that Muhammed (pbuh) is his Prophet?

What else is required?

[AbuQuteiba]

Originally Posted by Halcyon

Forgive me, but I have been told that the only requisite for being a Muslim believing that there is no God but Allah and that Muhammed (pbuh) is his Prophet?

What else is required?

Yes. But this discussion is, more or less, about what expels you from Islam. Oh, and just a correction. The translation of the first part of shahaada "Ashhadu an laa Ilaaha illaa Allaah" is "I bear witness that there is no god that deserves worship except Allaah". It's not, that there is no god but Allaah. For there are many false gods. Only one is Truth.

Wallaahu a'lam.

[yousaf]

Originally Posted by Halcyon

Forgive me, but I have been told that the only requisite for being a Muslim believing that there is no God but Allah and that Muhammed (pbuh) is his Prophet?

What else is required?

not exactly, yes they are 2 of the main beliefs but also you have to believe in the prophets of god, his books, his angels, life after death, good and bad fate is from god etc.

[K.Venugopal]

Originally Posted by AbuQuteiba

Yes. But this discussion is, more or less, about what expels you from Islam. Oh, and just a correction. The translation of the first part of shahaada "Ashhadu an laa Ilaaha illaa Allaah" is "I bear witness that there is no god that deserves worship except Allaah". It's not, that there is no god but Allaah. For there are many false gods. Only one is Truth.

Wallaahu a'lam.

I quote the following from Wikipedia. When you say, "...that deserves worship except Allaah" it is obviously an interpretation as those words are not there in the original.

Arabic text:
أشهد أن لا إله إلاَّ الله و أشهد أن محمد رسول الله
Romanization:
ʾašhadu ʾan lā ilāha illā-llāh, wa ʾašhadu ʾanna muḥammadan rasūlu-llāh
English rendering:
"I bear witness that there is no god except for God (Allah), and Muhammad is the messenger of God."'
An alternative rendering is:
"I testify that there are none worthy of worship except God, and I testify that Muhammad is the messenger of God."[1]
This version constitutes an interpretation rather than a direct translation, as the words "worthy of worship" are not present in the Arabic.
A single honest recitation of the Shahadah in Arabic is all that is required for a person to become a Muslim according to most traditional schools.
In usage the two occurrences of 'ašhadu 'an (or similar) = "I testify that" are very often omitted.

[TashaN]

Originally Posted by K.Venugopal

I quote the following from Wikipedia. When you say, "...that deserves worship except Allaah" it is obviously an interpretation as those words are not there in the original.

True, It's not a direct translation but an interpretation because sometimes, you can't simply translate from one language to another word by word, especially if it a rich language like arabic.

[AbuQuteiba]

Originally Posted by K.Venugopal

I quote the following from Wikipedia. When you say, "...that deserves worship except Allaah" it is obviously an interpretation as those words are not there in the original.

Arabic text:
أشهد أن لا إله إلاَّ الله و أشهد أن محمد رسول الله
Romanization:
ʾašhadu ʾan lā ilāha illā-llāh, wa ʾašhadu ʾanna muḥammadan rasūlu-llāh
English rendering:
"I bear witness that there is no god except for God (Allah), and Muhammad is the messenger of God."'
An alternative rendering is:
"I testify that there are none worthy of worship except God, and I testify that Muhammad is the messenger of God."[1]
This version constitutes an interpretation rather than a direct translation, as the words "worthy of worship" are not present in the Arabic.
A single honest recitation of the Shahadah in Arabic is all that is required for a person to become a Muslim according to most traditional schools.
In usage the two occurrences of 'ašhadu 'an (or similar) = "I testify that" are very often omitted.

Thank you. I stand corrected.

[K.Venugopal]

Originally Posted by Abu Khalid

True, It's not a direct translation but an interpretation because sometimes, you can't simply translate from one language to another word by word, especially if it a rich language like arabic.

Translation or interpretation, the key phrase in the Shahada apart from the two phrases (in the Sunni Shahada) 'Allah is the only god' and 'Mohammad is His messenger' is, 'I bear witness'. The Muslim or Muslim-to-be makes the claim to have witnessed the truth of the other two phrases. In reality Muslims are not witness to any objective facts about Allah and his messenger but are only expressing their own belief or faith that Allah is the only god and Mohammad is His messenger. Such being the reality, is the word ‘witness’ in translation (or interpretation) an incorrect translation (or interpretation)? If the translation is correct, haven’t Muslims (unknowingly, of course) been bearing false witness all the while?