Salvation, when? (Jesus, ritual, punishment, Earth, choice)

[sojourner]

Originally Posted by nutshell

What more is there for any of us to do? You're kidding right? We are commanded to "be ye perfect." Christ set the perfect example for us and we must strive to do all that he did.

Herein lies the undermining of the gospel. We are commanded to be perfect. But it is impossible for us to be perfect. Therefore, grace is made available to cover the imperfection. If it were possible for us to become perfect by our own devices, we would not need grace. If grace is what brings perfection, then we have nothing to worry about, because grace has already made us perfect.

Biblically, salvation is not based upon our works.

[Mystic-als]

sojourner - frubals!!!
For

Originally Posted by sojourner

Biblically, salvation is not based upon our works.

[nutshell]

Originally Posted by sojourner

Herein lies the undermining of the gospel. We are commanded to be perfect. But it is impossible for us to be perfect. Therefore, grace is made available to cover the imperfection. If it were possible for us to become perfect by our own devices, we would not need grace. If grace is what brings perfection, then we have nothing to worry about, because grace has already made us perfect.

Biblically, salvation is not based upon our works.

You may be surprised, but I agree with most of your post. I know we cannot become perfect and it's only through grace that we will be made perfect, but in the mean time, we need to do all we can, striving for the perfection we're commanded to achieve.

[Mystic-als]

nutshell - That is true. Grace is not some excuse to do whatever we want. We must strive to be perfect. And this theme you migh find in more than christianity. A search for enlightenment if you will.

[sojourner]

I think we need to be very careful about our motivations for doing what we do. Our works are reactive, not proactive. We do good works beacuse that's our proper reaction to finding ourselves in a state of grace. We do not do good works in order to win grace for ourselves. In this reactive stance, we strive to make our persona fit our identity, that is, if we are identified as being in a state of grace, we should live as if we are in a state of grace.

[writer]

1 When we make a desision to follow him are we "saved" at that moment or is it when we get baptised?
Both.
Rm 10:9-14. Mk 16:16. Ac 2:21. Ac 8

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Mystic-als

I was reading about Jesus and his calling in life.
So I wondered. When we make a desision to follow him are we "saved" at that moment or is it when we get baptised?

I used to think it's when I made the choice. But seeing that God only called Jesus "son" after Jesus' baptism it must only be after baptism.
I'm not trying to debate the issue. I just want different opinions. If you can please give me some scripture or why you think that way.

The Bible states that "he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." To me that says that salvation is not a one-time event, but a process. I believe that once we make the decision to follow Christ and are baptized, thereby entering into a covenant relationship with Him, we have an immediate promise of future salvation, provided we remain faithful. But if we fail to live up to the commitment we make to Him, salvation (or at least the fulness of salvation, which may be another topic entirely) will not be ours.

[sojourner]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

The Bible states that "he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." To me that says that salvation is not a one-time event, but a process. I believe that once we make the decision to follow Christ and are baptized, thereby entering into a covenant relationship with Him, we have an immediate promise of future salvation, provided we remain faithful. But if we fail to live up to the commitment we make to Him, salvation (or at least the fulness of salvation, which may be another topic entirely) will not be ours.

I respectfully disagree with this part of your post. "Failing" to "live up to a commitment" is an act-based dynamic -- not present in the process of salvation. That dynamic makes salvation a trophy to be won or lost -- a "contest" -- not a gift that is freely given to us.
If such is the case, how do we quantify "living up to our commitment?" How much "good works" is enough? How little is deemed "too little?"

Turning salvation into a "numbers game" is futile, since spiritual matters are not quantifiable.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by sojourner

I respectfully disagree with this part of your post. "Failing" to "live up to a commitment" is an act-based dynamic -- not present in the process of salvation. That dynamic makes salvation a trophy to be won or lost -- a "contest" -- not a gift that is freely given to us.

I don't believe you're understanding my perspective. You may even be understanding the words, but you're definitely not understanding the attitude behind them. We've had this conversation so many times in other threads, that I wonder if there's any point in my even trying to explain myself again.

Nevertheless, for the benefit of those who may have interpreted my words as you do... Salvation is not "a trophy to be won... [or] a contest." It is a gift offered to every human being who has ever lived. It is a "gift" because Christ is under no obligation to give it. He could have refused to sacrifice Himself to redeem our souls, in which case there would be no one -- no one at all -- who could ever hope be in a position to return to the presence of God. All of the good deeds in the world would be without value whatsoever.

If such is the case, how do we quantify "living up to our commitment?"

It's not up to us to quantify it. It's up to us to give Jesus Christ the best we have to offer, to show Him that we are sincere in recognizing Him as the only means by which we might be forgiven of our sins. This is what I mean by "living up to our commitment." It means doing more than "having faith in Christ." It means "being faithful to Christ."

How much "good works" is enough? How little is deemed "too little?"

God isn't counting and neither should we be. He expects us to be 100% committed to Jesus Christ. He knows the condition of our hearts. We show the depth of our sincerity by our obedience. He will reward each man according to his works, but all the works in the world are for naught without His grace, which is what ultimately saves.

Turning salvation into a "numbers game" is futile, since spiritual matters are not quantifiable.

I couldn't agree more.

I'd like to clarify my position on just one more point. I know that you believe in the universal salvation of everyone who has ever lived. I don't. But I do believe in an almost universal salvation -- including the salvation of billions of non-Christians and even non-theists. I think you have read enough of my posts on the subject to know that. Consequently, I think it's really not only inaccurate but unfair for you imply that I believe in an "act-based... process of salvation."

I also believe in different degrees of salvation. Jesus Christ said that He would reward every man according to his works. It is clear to me, if not to you, that our works do have value in God's eyes. Most anyone can manage to avoid spending eternity in Hell; that requires virtually no effort whatsoever. The fulness of salvation, on the other hand, requires an uncommon devotion to Jesus Christ and faithful obedience to His commandments. For those who attain that level of salvation, it will have been worth the effort.