Shi'ism foundation based on Judaism (reject, Moses, blood, mission)

[letuschat]

أهل العلم أن عبدالله بن سبا كان يهوديا فأسلم ووالى عليا عليه السلام وكان يقول وهو على يهوديته في يوشع بن نون وصي موسى بالغلو فقال في إسلامه بعد وفاة رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله في علي عليه السلام مثل ذلك .
وكان أول ( 3 ) من أشهر بالقول بفرض إمامة علي عليه السلام وأظهر البراءة من أعدائه وكاشف مخالفيه وأكفرهم ( 4 ) ، فمن ههنا قال من خالف الشيعة : أصل التشيع والرفض مأخوذ من اليهودية


http://al-shia.com/html/ara/books/be...har25/a29.html

http://www.shiabooks.info/books/htm1...13/no1304.html

`Allamah Majlisi said: "Some scholars have asserted that ibn Saba was a Jew who accepted Islam and started voicing his opinion of the `wilayat' (divine appointment) of `Ali. While a Jew, he propounded the exaggerative notion that Yusha ibn Nun was divinely appointed to succeed Prophet Musa, he thus adopted a similar stance with regard to `Ali in relation to the Holy Prophet. He was the first to subscribe to the belief of Imamate, and he openly vitriolated his enemies (i.e. the first three Caliphs) and branded them as infidels. The origin of Shi'ism and rafidizm is thus based on Judaism." (Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 25, p. 287).

[john313]

since the jews were around before muhammad, and they were one of the people of the book, "God's chosen people", doesn't that mean all islam should be "based on judaism?" this judaism was the religion of ishmael's father if i remember correctly.
i am of the opinion that real islam is the same as real judaism.

He was the first to subscribe to the belief of Imamate

this is sooooooo flawed. actually, that whole statement seems like garbage.

[Nehustan]

Originally Posted by john313

since the jews were around before muhammad, and they were one of the people of the book, "God's chosen people", doesn't that mean all islam should be "based on judaism?" this judaism was the religion of ishmael's father if i remember correctly.
i am of the opinion that real islam is the same as real judaism.

this is sooooooo flawed. actually, that whole statement seems like garbage.

Actually without wishing to be pedantic Judaism was no more the religion of Abraham than it was of Moses. Let me delineate.

Abraham did worship one God, and was thus a monotheist. However Jacob/Israel was a descendant of Isaac, thus Judah being one of the sons and subsequently tribes of Israel gives us the root of the word Judaism. It would thus be chronologically impossible for Abraham to be a Jew/Judah. Furthermore, Moses, was not a Jew, he and his brother Aaron were of the tribe of Levi , and thus again not Judah. It has however been argued that the Arabic appellation 'Yahoud' refers to three of the twelve tribes these being 'Judah, Benjamin and Levi' in which case if Yahoud is taken as the root for the term Judaism, Moses could be considered a Jew, but that's pretty tenuous.....

[john313]

Peace,

i was not referring to jew as in the bloodline, but rather as a religious belief. i refer to real judaism as that religion revealed by moses and by abraham, and other prophets. i am aware it was not called judaism at that time(abraham's time), but a rose by any other name is still a rose, and it still smells as sweet
i should have made that more clear in my first post.

wa salaam

[Nehustan]

I think that orthodox opinion is that all the prophets from Adam downwards were in Submission and thus Muslim in the widest sense. This can be considered by the counterpoint that The God says in the Quran..

Bimillah Ar Rahman Ar Raheem

"This day have those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: yet fear them not but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion." Sura 5:3

which certainly gives almost a date for the completion of the religion and thus message.

I think that in my consideration of the conflicting ideas proposed I am tended to think of the bretheren of the Propets as one religion. I am minded of when Muhammad was asked why if the Quran was true was it not revealed all at one time. He is instructed to say 'It was revelead in stages so as to strengthen you.'. May it infact be that the series of revelations culminating with Muhammad and beginning with Adam were also 'revealed in stages so as to strengthen us'...Allah Alim.

[john313]

salaam,
i think we think the same thing.

[TashaN]

Originally Posted by john313

Peace,

i was not referring to jew as in the bloodline, but rather as a religious belief. i refer to real judaism as that religion revealed by moses and by abraham, and other prophets. i am aware it was not called judaism at that time(abraham's time), but a rose by any other name is still a rose, and it still smells as sweet
i should have made that more clear in my first post.


wa salaam

Hi brother john313,

You can read these verses from Quran ...

[2:135] They said, "You have to be Jewish or Christian, to be guided." Say, "We follow the religion of Abraham - monotheism - he never was an idol worshiper."

[3:67] Abraham was neither Jewish, nor Christian; he was a monotheist submitter. He never was an idol worshiper.

[john313]

salaam,
right, he followed the same teachings as REAL judaism, as in the real teachings of the original torah, the same teachings as REAL christianity and REAL islam. i think what i said has been misunderstood. according to hadith: in the end times there will be 1 sect of judaism, 1 sect of christianity and 1 sect of islam that are rightly guided. these would be REAL judaism, REAL christianity, and REAL islam. all the same thing

wa salaam

[TashaN]

Originally Posted by john313

salaam,
right, he followed the same teachings as REAL judaism, as in the real teachings of the original torah, the same teachings as REAL christianity and REAL islam. i think what i said has been misunderstood. according to hadith: in the end times there will be 1 sect of judaism, 1 sect of christianity and 1 sect of islam that are rightly guided. these would be REAL judaism, REAL christianity, and REAL islam. all the same thing

wa salaam

It's clear that Abraham didn't follow the teaching of jewish because there was nothing called judaism in the time of Abraham but it came after prophet jacob.

The thing you just said about 1 sect of judaism, 1 sect of christianity and 1 sect of islam that are rightly guided. I believe it's not so accurate because if you looked after the Hadith you will find that prophet Mohammed said so about Islam only. Moreover, one of the scholars said this Hadith doesn't exist.

[john313]

Originally Posted by The Truth

It's clear that Abraham didn't follow the teaching of jewish because there was nothing called judaism in the time of Abraham but it came after prophet jacob.

The thing you just said about 1 sect of judaism, 1 sect of christianity and 1 sect of islam that are rightly guided. I believe it's not so accurate because if you looked after the Hadith you will find that prophet Mohammed said so about Islam only. Moreover, one of the scholars said this Hadith doesn't exist.

salaam,
as i said before, a rose by any other name is still a rose. just because something changes names does not mean the message or teaching changes. my mom used to be called a secretary, but here title changed to executive assistant. was she always an executive assistant, even before the title existed for her?
for the hadith, i remember reading it in the past, though i do not remember where. i also remember reading a hadith that said there will be many wicked scholars in the end times. we should not believe something just because a scholar said so. it is quite reasonable to believe there is a sect of christianity(followers of the christ, jesus) that follows his real teachings, just as it is reasonable to believe the same for judaism and islam. it may or not be true, it is hard to tell with many hadith; but i believe it is reasonable and is true.

wa salaam