Shi'ism foundation based on Judaism (reject, Moses, blood, mission)

[AbuQuteiba]

Originally Posted by john313

you are close on the hadith, but it says one sect of each will be saved. please get your information correct before pointing your finger and saying i am wrong. what it is referring to is the people that consider themselves
christians/jews/muslims. there will be one 'sect' of each that is rightly guided, which means they will be following the same path, which means they will each be following the "real" form of their religion as taught by their prophets, hence they are the same as per your quotes from the quran.
i did not post the source of the hadith because i could not remember that off the top of my head, but i do remember the hadith very clearly. i said i chose my words correctly because you thought you needed to correct me, but there was no need for correction.
i follow the teachings of the prophets, the straight path, muslims call it islam. but it is sometimes called different things, especially by those that do not speak arabic.

peace

How original. Well until you can find that hadith you "remember very clearly", there's no need to go on with this conversation, is there? Oh and btw, you'll never find it. There is no such hadeeth. Everything you've said completely contradicts Islam's teachings.

[john313]

i notice you failed to cite your hadith also. if i get bored i might look mine up, but it is not at the top of my things to do list. but nothing i said contradicts islam as taught by the prophets. here is something for you to chew on
according to what you said is not islamic: from the quran rather than hadith....

002.062 "Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish
(scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the
Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on
them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve"
-it seems here that those who follow the torah, and christians and sabians(who follow the injeel) will be ok. that seems to contradict what you said 100%. may God forgive you for falsely accusing me.
do you still want the hadith or is quranic proof enough?
p.s.- your uncited hadith contradicts the quran

peace

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Originally Posted by john313

salaam,
right, he followed the same teachings as REAL judaism,

Asalamu alaikum, How can he follow something that does not exist. He was a muslim.

as in the real teachings of the original torah, the same teachings as REAL christianity and REAL islam. i think what i said has been misunderstood. according to hadith: in the end times there will be 1 sect of judaism, 1 sect of christianity and 1 sect of islam that are rightly guided. these would be REAL judaism, REAL christianity, and REAL islam. all the same thing

wa salaam

No the hadith states that there is only one group that is rightly guided and that are those who accept Islam and the sunnah of the Messenger. Besides read surah 3 verse 85 in the Quran. I think that this evidence is sufficient for your statement.

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Originally Posted by The Truth

It's clear that Abraham didn't follow the teaching of jewish because there was nothing called judaism in the time of Abraham but it came after prophet jacob.

The thing you just said about 1 sect of judaism, 1 sect of christianity and 1 sect of islam that are rightly guided. I believe it's not so accurate because if you looked after the Hadith you will find that prophet Mohammed said so about Islam only. Moreover, one of the scholars said this Hadith doesn't exist.

The hadith is the Muslim will divide to 73 sects, Christians 72, Jews 71 only 1 is going to paradise. come on eveyone knows this hadith except for john.

[AbuQuteiba]

Originally Posted by john313

i notice you failed to cite your hadith also. if i get bored i might look mine up, but it is not at the top of my things to do list. but nothing i said contradicts islam as taught by the prophets. here is something for you to chew on
according to what you said is not islamic: from the quran rather than hadith....

002.062 "Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish
(scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the
Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on
them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve"
-it seems here that those who follow the torah, and christians and sabians(who follow the injeel) will be ok. that seems to contradict what you said 100%. may God forgive you for falsely accusing me.
do you still want the hadith or is quranic proof enough?
p.s.- your uncited hadith contradicts the quran
peace

Unfortunately, buddy, it seems you have not read the Qur'an in it's entirety. Let alone the Sunna. The Qur'an, and the Prophet (SAWS) tell us that the Torah, and the Bible, were changed. The only book that is preserved by Allah(SWT) is the Qur'an. The Jews and Christians mentioned in the verse are of the old times. When their books were preserved. As in before they were changed, and before the Prophet(SAWS) was sent to the world.

And no, may Allah(SWT) forgive you for speaking without knowledge. The hadith i mentioned is very much authentic. And does not go against the Qur'an in any way. It only goes against your poor interpretation.

The only religion to follow is Islam. The only book to follow is the Qur'an. The only Prophet to follow is Muhammed(SAWS).[28] We have not sent thee but as a universal (Messenger) to men, giving them glad tidings, and warning them (against sin), but most men understand not[34.28] The Prophet(SAWS) has mentioned several times that even if Moses(AS) was brought down once again, he would have no choice but to follow Muhammed(SAWS). And we also know that Jesus(AS), when he come's back, will follow the current religion of Islam.

I'm sorry man. But your religion of "submission" is some sort of concoction you've devised. May Allah guide you. Peace.

[john313]

i stand by my statements and know they are correct. please tell me why my interpretation of the quran is incorrect. if it is as you say it is, please tell me the 7 correct interpretations, if you speak the truth, bring your evidence.
in the book of jeremiah(a book of the tanakh/bible) (8:7-9) he says the torah has been changed. he lived about 1200 years before muhammad.

here are more i must have misinterpreted:
005.069 "Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish
(scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in God and
the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they
grieve."
***please tell me why i misinterpreted this if you speak the truth, bring your evidence.


005.066 "If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the
revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed
happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course:
but many of them follow a course that is evil."
***and this one please

005.068 Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye
stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you
from your Lord."...
***this one too -please note the present tesne in this verse, meaning it CANNOT refer to the old times

let me know if you reject the meaning of the quran on these verses too.
Allah has guided me, that is why i can see without cultural blockage, without prejudice. praise to God.


peace

[AbuQuteiba]

Originally Posted by john313

i stand by my statements and know they are correct. please tell me why my interpretation of the quran is incorrect. if it is as you say it is, please tell me the 7 correct interpretations, if you speak the truth, bring your evidence.
in the book of jeremiah(a book of the tanakh/bible) (8:7-9) he says the torah has been changed. he lived about 1200 years before muhammad.

here are more i must have misinterpreted:
005.069 "Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish
(scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in God and
the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they
grieve."
***please tell me why i misinterpreted this if you speak the truth, bring your evidence.


005.066 "If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the
revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed
happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course:
but many of them follow a course that is evil."
***and this one please

005.068 Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye
stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you
from your Lord."...
***this one too -please note the present tesne in this verse, meaning it CANNOT refer to the old times

let me know if you reject the meaning of the quran on these verses too.
Allah has guided me, that is why i can see without cultural blockage, without prejudice. praise to God.
peace

Heheh. Taking things out of context again? And for what? To back up your own personal belief's? What a shame. I reject the Qur'an? Subhan Allah. Cultural blockage? Prejudice? Who exactly are you trying to fool?

Question(s). Have you read the hundred's of authentic hadeeth that explain the Qur'an? Have you read the interpretation's of the Sahaba (the Prophet(SAWS)'s companion's)? You say you follow the Gospel's, right? What about the verses in the Qur'an, and in the authentic hadeeth, that show the Gospel was changed by man? How can you follow something that's not from God? Not to mention using it as proof (for Islam).

And just explain to me, since you "follow" all the books of Allah(SWT), are you better than Muhammed(SAWS)? Why did'nt Muhammed(SAWS) follow the previous books? Why did he even do da'wa (bring them to Islam) for the Jews and Christians? Why does Allah(SWT) order us repeatedly in the Qur'an to call the people of the Book to Islam?

Excuse me. I mean no disrespect for whatever you choose as a religion for yourself. But don't come here, expecting us to accept you as a Muslim. The only truth is Islam. The only true Islam, is the one Allah(SWT) chose for humanity. It's the Islam Muhammed(SAWS) practiced. And it's called Islam. Not submission.

Allah(SWT) said, in the only and final revelation for humanity:
[19] The religion before Allah is Islam (submission to His Will): nor did the people of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account.

[20] So if they dispute with thee, say: "I have submitted my whole self to Allah and so have those who follow me." And say to the People of the Book and to those who are unlearned: "Do ye (also) submit yourselves?" If they do, they are in right guidance, but if they turn back, thy duty is to convey the Message; and in Allah's sight are (all) His servants.[3.19-20]

[85] If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).

[86] How shall Allah guide those who reject Faith after they accepted it and bore witness that the Messenger was true and that Clear Signs had come unto them? But Allah guides not a people unjust.[3.85-86]

[7] Who doth greater wrong than one who invents falsehood against Allah, even as he is being invited to Islam? And Allah guides not those who do wrong.

[8] Their intention is to extinguish Allah's Light (by blowing) with their mouths: but Allah will complete (the revelation of) His Light, even though the Unbelievers may detest (it).

[9] It is He Who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, that he may proclaim it over all religion, even though the Pagans may detest (it).[61.4]

May Allah(SWT) guide you to the true religion, Islam. Peace

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Originally Posted by john313

i stand by my statements and know they are correct. please tell me why my interpretation of the quran is incorrect. if it is as you say it is, please tell me the 7 correct interpretations, if you speak the truth, bring your evidence.
in the book of jeremiah(a book of the tanakh/bible) (8:7-9) he says the torah has been changed. he lived about 1200 years before muhammad.

here are more i must have misinterpreted:
005.069 "Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish
(scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in God and
the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they
grieve."
***please tell me why i misinterpreted this if you speak the truth, bring your evidence.


005.066 "If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the
revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed
happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course:
but many of them follow a course that is evil."
***and this one please

005.068 Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye
stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you
from your Lord."...
***this one too -please note the present tesne in this verse, meaning it CANNOT refer to the old times

let me know if you reject the meaning of the quran on these verses too.
Allah has guided me, that is why i can see without cultural blockage, without prejudice. praise to God.


peace

Read the tafsir of these ayat from Imam Kathir or Qurtubi and listen to what the Prophet pbuh and his righteous companions have to say about the meaning of the ayat and then the understanding of how you are incorrect will be more clear. Because then you will see that the only context accepted in terms of interpreting the Quran is the context given to us by the Messenger and his companions.

It's ok though many christians have a problem with this because they do not have a clear context to follow. That is why they have so many interpretations but in Islam you know that the only interpretation accepted as being a true understanding of the Quran and sunnah is with their understanding.

[john313]

it is too bad you do not believe i am muslim, but the prophets said it would be so in the end times. most men will never believe. i have been guided to the true religion brother, praise to God.
muhammad called the 'people of the book' to islam because many had strayed from the straight path taught by the prophets before.-as YOUR quranic quote says "The religion before Allah is Islam (submission to His Will): nor did the people of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them."
why is it in your post several times "islam(submission to Allah) if islam is not submission? islam is submission to the will of Allah. that is what the prophets taught, some of their followers called it different things because not all prophets spoke arabic to their people.
i see nothing convincing in your arguement to make me think differently.
sorry if my response is not complete enough, but i need to get going.

peace

[AbuQuteiba]

Originally Posted by john313

it is too bad you do not believe i am muslim, but the prophets said it would be so in the end times. most men will never believe. i have been guided to the true religion brother, praise to God.

I apologize John. I made a mistake in my last post by saying something on the lines of "dont think we'll consider you a Muslim" or something of the sort. I am truly sorry. I meant to say, just because you call yourself a Muslim, doesn't mean we must consider what you're saying Islamic". I, once more, truly apologize.

Originally Posted by john313

muhammad called the 'people of the book' to islam because many had strayed from the straight path taught by the prophets before.-as YOUR quranic quote says "The religion before Allah is Islam (submission to His Will): nor did the people of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them."

Muhammed(SAWS) did not in any way, call the "people of the book", to what their original Prophets had taught them. The Prophet(SAWS) called them to the Islam, the law, that Allah(SWT) had sent down with him(SAWS). Yes, we do believe that the basic message of all the previous Prophets and revelations were the same. They all called for Tawheed. But we also believe that all of the previous Prophets(AS) and revelations, were sent down for a certain people, and for a certain time period. There is no doubt, that the only Prophet, sent for all of mankind, was the Prophet Muhammed(SAWS). and the only revelation sent down for all of mankind, is the holy Qur'an. There is also no dispute between any two Muslim scholars, that the Qur'an, has abrogated all previous revelations and scriptures. Including the Torah, and the Injeel.

The verse in the Qur'an does not say "Submission to his will". It says Islam, period.

Originally Posted by john313

why is it in your post several times "islam(submission to Allah) if islam is not submission? islam is submission to the will of Allah. that is what the prophets taught, some of their followers called it different things because not all prophets spoke arabic to their people.

Islam, literally, means Submission. But we're not talking about religions in the literal sense now are we? I said before, that the basic message of all previos revelations and Prophets were the same. But the Law itself is different. Thats why, and i think i've said this before, it has been reported in the authentic hadeeth that the Prophet(SAWS) said, if Moses were to be sent down once more, he would have no choice but to follow me. It's also why Jesus will follow the current Islam, when he returns, (AS).

Originally Posted by john313

i see nothing convincing in your arguement to make me think differently.
sorry if my response is not complete enough, but i need to get going.
peace

Well, at least i have an argument, sir. You on the other hand have chosen to take segments of each religion, and make up your own. I dont think that any Jew, Christian, or Muslim would agree to what you're saying. It is in ever sene of the word, wrong.

Peace.