Flavius Josephus About Jesus?

[Kurt31416]

"What is resolved is you have no idea what "consensus" means or how scholarship works."

Back to the ad-hominem. Gotta start right out with that.

You're plenty bright enough to present your ideas without talking about your or my personal failings. Give it a shot.

I keep turning the cheek here Dave, even though I think it came from Paul, not Jesus.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Kurt31416

Why is it hard to imagine someone could be persecuted, including losing their job, for saying the genuine Jesus isn't in the Christian Bible? Someone's teaching that to the students at a religious college and no one might complain and make trouble? The bishop listed as a supporter of a late Thomas would keep his job if he openly argued the opposite?

I love Christians, but plenty of Jerry Falwells left out there.

It depends on the college or university. If you are teaching at a VERY christian college, it stands to reason. But if you are, you know that before you take the job. These places make faculty swear that Jesus is their personal savior. They aren't really known for their research or scholarship.

The top universities in Germany, France, England, and America, however, with reputations for producing scholarship in NT research do not fire people for not believing in Jesus. Plenty of experts in this field aren't christian, and even a catholic priest like Meier has written critical works on the gospels and on Jesus.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Kurt31416

You're plenty bright enough to present your ideas without talking about your or my personal failings. Give it a shot.

Impossible not to refer to your lack of knowledge. I gave you a list of scholars who have produced academic publications on the late date of thomas. In return, you say that Funk has a lot of awards. This means zippo. It isn't how consensus or scholarship works.

I keep turning the cheek here Dave, even though I think it came from Paul, not Jesus.

Why do you keep calling me Dave? Do I know you?

[Oberon]

List of publications by N. T. Wright: N.T Wright: Publications and Broadcasts

Sort of dwarfs Funks, don't you think?

As for degrees, more of those too:

Education

(i) University of Oxford: Exeter College (from 1975, Merton College):

2000 D.D. (published work submitted, principally The New Testament and the People of God, The Climax of the Covenant and Jesus and the Victory of God)
1981 D.Phil. (Thesis topic: ‘The Messiah and the People of God: A Study in Pauline Theology with Particular Reference to the Argument of the Epistle to the Romans’; supervisor: Prof. G.B. Caird)
1975 M.A.
1973 B.A. (1st class Honours), Theology; Denyer and Johnson Prize (shared) for top first class of year; College Prize
1971 B.A. (1st class Honours), Literae Humaniores; College Prize

And look! More honors:



Honours

2007 Honorary Doctor of Divinity, Durham University (forthcoming)
2006 Honorary Doctor of Divinity, Wycliffe College, Toronto
2006 Honorary Doctor of Divinity, Nashotah House
2004 Honorary Fellow, Merton College, Oxford
2003 Honorary Doctor of Humane Letters, Gordon College, Massachusetts
2003 Honorary Fellow, Downing College, Cambridge
2001 Honorary Doctor of Divinity, Aberdeen University

[Kurt31416]

Originally Posted by Oberon

It depends on the college or university...

Good, steady progress. So, are you counting the vote of those in those universities that would lose their job for saying so? And surely you agree the Bishop you use as a reference would lose his job.

[Kurt31416]

"Impossible not to refer to your lack of knowledge."

Yeah, me and those Senior Fullbright Scholars, and Gugenheim Fellows.

Well, I tried to turn the other cheek Dave, and we both know I did, so never ever claim otherwise.

You have to resort to ad-hominem because you are too flat stupid to keep up. On the historical Jesus or mathematical physics.

How's them apples, pal?

[Kurt31416]

It Stands Resolved:

• Scholars that argue for an early Thomas have academic honors vastly exceeding those that argue the opposite.
• The Jesus Seminar says members were persecuted, including losing their jobs, for being members.
• Some universities will fire a professor for saying Thomas was earlier.
• Some of those scholars with the vastly superior academic honors even think it's possible the twin brother of Jesus, Judas Thomas actually wrote Thomas.
• David admits he can't present his position without resorting to ad-hominem.

Did I miss anything?

[Kurt31416]

And yeah, if "Biblical scholarship" in your mind, isn't the Fullbright Senior Scholars and Guggehheim Fellows, it's that bishop and billy-bob's Sunday Chapel and Truck Stop preacher, you can have it.

I'll stick to the guys that get good grades in school.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Kurt31416

Good, steady progress. So, are you counting the vote of those in those universities that would lose their job for saying so? And surely you agree the Bishop you use as a reference would lose his job.

As a bishop, I have no idea. As a professor no. And as for those universities, as I said they tell you in advance what you have to believe. Nobody who doesn't believe joins their staff, nor is allowed to.

Originally Posted by Kurt31416

Yeah, me and those Senior Fullbright Scholars, and Gugenheim Fellows.

You aren't a scholar.

Well, I tried to turn the other cheek Dave, and we both know I did, so never ever claim otherwise.

Why do you keep calling me Dave?

You have to resort to ad-hominem because you are too flat stupid to keep up. On the historical Jesus or mathematical physics.

Mathematical physics? very funny.

Originally Posted by Kurt31416

It Stands Resolved:

By you. You resolve for yourself all you want.

Scholars that argue for an early Thomas have academic honors vastly exceeding those that argue the opposite.

Now I gave you a list crentials of someone with more degrees, honors, and publications, and you still aren't backing off this claim, huh?

The Jesus Seminar says members were persecuted, including losing their jobs, for being members.

Still waiting for the source on this.

Some universities will fire a professor for saying Thomas was earlier.

Yes. This is true. But who cares? These universities tend not to contribute much to critical scholarship or science

Some of those scholars with the vastly superior academic honors even think it's possible the twin brother of Jesus, Judas Thomas actually wrote Thomas.

So far, all you have to back this claim is a comment made by one scholar that it is possible that part of thomas may go back to Judas Thomas. You have yet to refer to a single academic publication to back this claim.

David admits he can't present his position without resorting to ad-hominem.

Ad hominem doen't need a dash. It is the preposition ad plus the accusative of homo.

Did I miss anything?

Yes. In the real world of scholarship, nobody lists a bunch of awards and faculty positions to back an argument. Even a grad student can write to a peer-reviewed academic journal. Scholarship is accepted on the basis of peer-review by other leaders in the field. The fact is, Funk could have six times the degrees he does, that wouldn't change the fact that neither he nor the Jesus seminar represents NT scholarship. They don't even represent American NT scholarship, let alone the rest of the world. The truth stands, and I can give a list of actual publications on the subject, all by academics writing for scholarly journals or publishers, to back me up, as opposed to listing one guy's degrees or awards.

And yeah, if "Biblical scholarship" in your mind, isn't the Fullbright Senior Scholars and Guggehheim Fellows, it's that bishop and billy-bob's Sunday Chapel and Truck Stop preacher, you can have it

Biblical scholarship is much more than Fullbright or Guggenhheim or the Jesus seminar. There are lots of journals, societies, fellowships, etc. in this field. All of the dozen or so guys I listed earlier have their share of degrees and awards, and as I showed, at least some of them have more than Funk. Doesn't matter. What matters is where the consensus of scholarship is and why. I can give you the relevant bibliographies. And you can dismiss N.T. Wright for being christian all you want. But neither Funk nor the Jesus seminar has ever claimed to be unbiased. In fact, the seminar had expressed political views from the outset.

[Kurt31416]

Originally Posted by Oberon

As a bishop, I have no idea. As a professor no. And as for those universities, as I said they tell you in advance what you have to believe. Nobody who doesn't believe joins their staff, nor is allowed to..

You already agreed to the obvious, that at some universities, you would be fired for saying Thomas was older and more genuine than the Bible.

Originally Posted by Oberon

You aren't a scholar..

Yeah, and you're a moron. A repetitive one. A mindless, follower of religious dogma.

Originally Posted by Oberon

By you. You resolve for yourself all you want..

Oh we've exposed some real gaps in your knowledge alright. That's clear.

Originally Posted by Oberon

Still waiting for the source on this..

Well you finally admits you're ignorant of it, like all the rest... Sure, I'll go fetch it and type part of it in, all you had to do is ask...

"Critical scholarship is regularly under attack by conservative Christian groups. At least one Fellow of the Jesus Seminar lost his academic post as a result of his membership in the group. Others hae been forced to withdraw as a consequence of institutional pressure. Latter day inquisitors among Southern Baptist and Lutheran groups ave gone witch hunting for scholars who did not pass their litmus tests. Public attack on members of the Seminar is commonplace, coming especiallly from those who lack academic credentials."
The Five Gospels, p. 35

How does it feel to walk in the footsteps of the Inquisition?

Originally Posted by Oberon

Yes. In the real world of scholarship, nobody lists a bunch of awards and faculty positions to back an argument.

Biblical scholarship is much more than Fullbright or Guggenhheim .

Yeah, it's gotta be something other than fancy honors like that, because no one on that pathetic list sure as hell could never get one.

You brought up what the experts think, and you've had your nose rubbed in it.