Who IS "The Only TRUE God"- as Jesus put it?

[F0uad]

Originally Posted by icebuddy

Jesus was both Man and God in nature. Although he was God, he emptied himself to become a man. As a man, he learned to eat, walk, talk, and basicaly everything you and I had to learn as a man. Yet he created everything even the abilities he had to learn as a man. 1tim 3:16

Numbers 23:19 disagrees.

[roberto]

Originally Posted by icebuddy

Jesus was both Man and God in nature. Although he was God, he emptied himself to become a man. As a man, he learned to eat, walk, talk, and basicaly everything you and I had to learn as a man. Yet he created everything even the abilities he had to learn as a man. 1tim 3:16

Jesus is truely the best mediator for us, for he knows what it is to be Man and God.

Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.

Why did G_d pray to himself on the cross ?

[Shermana]

Originally Posted by ForeverFaithful

Please excuse the bluntness of this, but since when are Dhamrics able to read the Bible better than the people who assembled it?

You realize Jesus called himself good as in being the GOOD Shepard right?

-Ignore this post, didn't realize there was 90 pages of this

The word "good" as in "Good shepherd" is different than the one of "Why do you call me good". Paul also calls himself the "Good soldier" with the same word Jesus uses for "GOOD" Shepherd. So is Paul calling himself God? No. Therefore, Jesus is not calling himself God by calling himself the "Good shepherd".

You're right, people who aren't involved in the original Church shouldn't necessarily have authority on what it says. That's why "Messianic Jews" (aka Nazarenes) should have prime authority on what it says. As for the people who "assembled it", that's a lot different than the people who "wrote it".

Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.

What do you think it means to be the "bright and morning star" exactly? Is he referring to the sun? How does that jive with:

Isa 14:12-15 (NIV) How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High." But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit.

Hmmm, who is the Morning star exactly?

[kjw47]

Originally Posted by abidehandy

Gen. 1:1 "In the beginning God ( Elohimwhich I believe is plural) created... If Elohim is plural, does that mean there is One God or 3 in one? (God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit?)
Then Gen. 1:26.." let us (plural) make man in our (plural) image, in our (plural) likeness...

So, how do we carry this discussion according to the above reference?

Is God one in three or three in one? Achad and Yashid?

Gen. 2:24"....and they will become one (Achad: one made up of parts) flesh"

One must apply the facts of history--- Moses wrote genesis--Its 100% fact the israelites all throughout the ot down to this day served the God of Abraham, Moses,David,Job,Isaiah,Daniel,Elijah,etc--- They all served the true God--Every one of them served YHWH(Jehovah) a single being God. Its israelite history fact. undisputable fact. That is why Jesus can make this true claim-- rev 3:12.

[URAVIP2ME]

Originally Posted by abidehandy

Gen. 1:1 "In the beginning God ( Elohimwhich I believe is plural) created... If Elohim is plural, does that mean there is One God or 3 in one? (God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit?)
Then Gen. 1:26.." let us (plural) make man in our (plural) image, in our (plural) likeness...
So, how do we carry this discussion according to the above reference?
Is God one in three or three in one? Achad and Yashid?
Gen. 2:24"....and they will become one (Achad: one made up of parts) flesh"

First of all, God is Spirit not physical.
Jesus prayed that his followers be 'one' as he and his Father are one.
Surely Jesus was not praying they all be God. [John 17 vs 11,21,22,23]
However, they could all be one in faith, purpose, unity, goal, etc.

If I were to say to you 'let us go somewhere' wouldn't you understand that to mean 'You and I' [2] persons?

So, who was God talking to at Genesis 1 v 26; 3 v 22 ?
Was God talking to himself ? [if all three are God then God was talking to himself], Or rather was God talking to the beginning of the creation by God?
Revelation [3 v 14 B] mentions Jesus as that beginning creation.
Remember only God is from everlasting according to Psalm 90 v 2.
So, only the Un-created God was before the beginning.
Jesus was not before the beginning as God was before the beginning.

God and Jesus are always addressed in the masculine never neuter.
However, God's spirit is sometimes addressed in the neuter because at Romans [8 vs 16, 26] and Numbers [11 vs 16,17,25] God's spirit is an 'it' or 'itself' [neuter].
Even in English sometimes a neuter such as a ship is called as a she.
Yet we know a ship is not as male or female but an 'it' [neuter].

Psalm [104 v 30] talks about the power or energy God's spirit force has in that when God sends forth his spirit things are created.

So, the 'us' [plural] in Genesis is God talking to his only-begotten heavenly Son.
God's only direct creation because all else comes through Jesus.

[icebuddy]

Originally Posted by URAVIP2ME

First of all, God is Spirit not physical.

However, God does have a physical image. The physical Image of God is Jesus.

Jesus prayed that his followers be 'one' as he and his Father are one.
Surely Jesus was not praying they all be God. [John 17 vs 11,21,22,23]
However, they could all be one in faith, purpose, unity, goal, etc.

Jesus has a unique way to look at things for he is both the Root(creator) and the offspring(man) of David. So when he prays for the followers to be one with the Father, he is meaning this to be from a mans side of things. For we can never be one with the Father as Jesus is one with the Father in all his completeness. For we cannot be the image of the invisible God holding all things together by our supreme being as they can. My main point is that not only is Jesus one with the Father in purpose(in which this prayer is about), Jesus is also one in being(that which makes God God) with the Father.

If I were to say to you 'let us go somewhere' wouldn't you understand that to mean 'You and I' [2] persons?

You are thinking like a limited man. If you were a 3D being and wanted to visit a 2D world, Could the 2D people correctly explain that which they do not know?

So, who was God talking to at Genesis 1 v 26; 3 v 22 ?
Was God talking to himself ? [if all three are God then God was talking to himself], Or rather was God talking to the beginning of the creation by God?
Revelation [3 v 14 B] mentions Jesus as that beginning creation.
Remember only God is from everlasting according to Psalm 90 v 2.
So, only the Un-created God was before the beginning.
Jesus was not before the beginning as God was before the beginning.

Jesus as the beginning.. The Father is called the beginning and end, does that mean he has a beginning to or an end? You are forcing things in my opinion. John 1:3 says "NOTHING" was created apart from Jesus and John 1:1 says in the beginning was already the Word(JEsus). If you look to 1John 1-4 you will read that the Word is Eternal life and was always existing before there was a beginning. Rev 3:14 is saying that Jesus is the Creater the beginner of the creation of God, not that he is part of creation itself.

Psalm 90:2 could also be said of Jesus. Jesus is the same yesterbay, today, and forever. Hebrews 1:10-12 with Ps 102:25-27

Read Genesis 1:1 and john 1:1-3, John wanted us to know that the God who created the heavens and the earth is more than the Jews pictured. That this God of love was able to love within the God head before he created anything. That the Eternal Word of Life was always there with God and is also God.

In Love,
tom

[tempter]

Originally Posted by theMadJW

Is it 3 Gods in 1?
God-the-Father, God-the-Son, and God-the-Ghost?

Did Jesus HAVE a God?

It depends on whom you ask. Some say there is one god, others say more than one. The real answer is that the only god that exists is the one YOU want to believe in, unless it can be proven otherwise (which it can't).

[Shermana]

However, God does have a physical image. The physical Image of God is Jesus.

Being the Image of is not the same as being the Being. Jesus is the representative.

Jesus has a unique way to look at things for he is both the Root(creator)

He's not the Creator, but the Vehicle of which Creation was made THROUGH, as the Firstborn of Creation, the Personification of Wisdom.

and the offspring(man) of David. So when he prays for the followers to be one with the Father, he is meaning this to be from a mans side of things. For we can never be one with the Father as Jesus is one with the Father in all his completeness.

Scripture does not say this whatsoever.

For we cannot be the image of the invisible God holding all things together by our supreme being as they can.

That has nothing to do with being the Image.

My main point is that not only is Jesus one with the Father in purpose(in which this prayer is about), Jesus is also one in being(that which makes God God) with the Father.

As long as you understand that's not scriptural.

You are thinking like a limited man. If you were a 3D being and wanted to visit a 2D world, Could the 2D people correctly explain that which they do not know?

And to not be a limited man means to accept any and all interpretations?

Jesus as the beginning.. The Father is called the beginning and end, does that mean he has a beginning to or an end?

Jesus was the Beginning OF CREATION. Meaning, he was the First Created Soul.

You are forcing things in my opinion.

Trinitarians force things in my opinion.

John 1:3 says "NOTHING" was created apart from Jesus

Yes, all things were made THROUGH the Firstborn of Creation, see Proverbs 8.

and John 1:1 says in the beginning was already the Word(JEsus).

It doesn't mean the Word already existed neccessarily, the meaning of "beginning" is a bit disputable. Does it refer to the beginning of Creation? Possibly.

If you look to 1John 1-4 you will read that the Word is Eternal life and was always existing before there was a beginning.

Nothing in 1 John says anything close to this, what verse are you thinking of specifically?

Rev 3:14 is saying that Jesus is the Creater the beginner of the creation of God, not that he is part of creation itself.

Talk about forcing things, it doesn't really say that at all.

Psalm 90:2 could also be said of Jesus. Jesus is the same yesterbay, today, and forever. Hebrews 1:10-12 with Ps 102:25-27

Wanna go over those verses individually?

Read Genesis 1:1 and john 1:1-3, John wanted us to know that the God who created the heavens and the earth is more than the Jews pictured.

Read Proverbs 8 and Philo's Logos Theology which John and his intended audience were probably well acquainted with, John was trying to tell us that the "Firstborn of Creation", Wisdom incarnated, was the means which God's Creation came THROUGH.

[sojourner]

Originally Posted by icebuddy

However, God does have a physical image. The physical Image of God is Jesus.



Jesus has a unique way to look at things for he is both the Root(creator) and the offspring(man) of David. So when he prays for the followers to be one with the Father, he is meaning this to be from a mans side of things. For we can never be one with the Father as Jesus is one with the Father in all his completeness. For we cannot be the image of the invisible God holding all things together by our supreme being as they can. My main point is that not only is Jesus one with the Father in purpose(in which this prayer is about), Jesus is also one in being(that which makes God God) with the Father.



You are thinking like a limited man. If you were a 3D being and wanted to visit a 2D world, Could the 2D people correctly explain that which they do not know?



Jesus as the beginning.. The Father is called the beginning and end, does that mean he has a beginning to or an end? You are forcing things in my opinion. John 1:3 says "NOTHING" was created apart from Jesus and John 1:1 says in the beginning was already the Word(JEsus). If you look to 1John 1-4 you will read that the Word is Eternal life and was always existing before there was a beginning. Rev 3:14 is saying that Jesus is the Creater the beginner of the creation of God, not that he is part of creation itself.

Psalm 90:2 could also be said of Jesus. Jesus is the same yesterbay, today, and forever. Hebrews 1:10-12 with Ps 102:25-27

Read Genesis 1:1 and john 1:1-3, John wanted us to know that the God who created the heavens and the earth is more than the Jews pictured. That this God of love was able to love within the God head before he created anything. That the Eternal Word of Life was always there with God and is also God.

In Love,
tom

Good for you!

[icebuddy]

Originally Posted by Shermana

Being the Image of is not the same as being the Being. Jesus is the representative.

You are using your human limitations here. We believe God supplied his Image of himself using his own being to do so. That God in some fashion entered our realm of time while remaining in heaven at the same time. For he is God and Creator of all things, so he can do what he wants with no limitations.

He's not the Creator, but the Vehicle of which Creation was made THROUGH, as the Firstborn of Creation, the Personification of Wisdom.

This sounds very dangerous to me, saying Jesus is NOT the creator. I feel Jesus's pain on that one... If God has hands, God Created with his own hands. For someone to say Gods hands didnt create but only was a Vehicle is very odd to me. Everything was created For Jesus and by Jesus. We believe so different that i see many other problems. For example: i believe we are Body, Soul, and Spirit made like our creator who is also 3 in 1. For me if my Body Created something, my Body and Soul also created with my body in union. (Thats as simple as i can explain it)

Scripture does not say this whatsoever.

The Bible says it so clear i cant see how one doesnt see it. I wrote: So when he prays for the followers to be one with the Father, he is meaning this to be from a mans side of things. For we can never be one with the Father as Jesus is one with the Father in all his completeness. Jesus was a man when he prays and is an example for us humans to follow. We cannot be the Eternal Word of Life as Jesus is with the Father. So the example for us to be one with the Father is the way Jesus shows through his humanity on earth. No one can say they Created like Jesus can or Say Im the Word or Life, or i am they way or anything Jesus can claim. (Sounds LDS-ish to me) We can only be one with the Father as Humans and Jesus shows us through his human existance how this is done.

That has nothing to do with being the Image.

Again I wrote: For we cannot be the image of the invisible God holding all things together by our supreme being as they can. Are you saying that Jesus being the Image if the invisible God has nothing to do with him being the Image? Again, Jesus prays for us to be one with God the Father as Jesus's Human existance is one with God. We can never be one with God in the unique way Jesus is. (creator, maker, saviour, begotten son, and many more) To think otherwise borders what LDS believe...

As long as you understand that's not scriptural.

I wrote: My main point is that not only is Jesus one with the Father in purpose(in which this prayer is about), Jesus is also one in being(that which makes God God) with the Father.

Are we reading a different bible? its all over scripture. Jesus is Jehovah our Righteousness! Could you say that and be proud of it or nervous that you said something wrong? (Does anyone say this at your church would be a good question for you to ask yourself) BTW, Something that could never be said of regular Humans like you and me. Their Oneness is not the same as ours....

And to not be a limited man means to accept any and all interpretations?

I dont follow you here. We have the Holy Spirit guiding us today into all truth that our human limitations cannot understand.

Jesus was the Beginning OF CREATION. Meaning, he was the First Created Soul.

Talking about "Interpretations"! The Father God is called "the Beginning and End" of all things. I would expect Jesus to also be called the "Beginning and End" of all Creation as well. Your Jesus is expressing a lesser God when Jesus should be expressing God Fully and exactly. Jesus is the Beginning and the End of all Creation! Just as the Father is the Beginning and End. BTW, do you think the Father has a beginning too? the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the Beginners of all things. Do not let OLD LANGUAGE get in the way with new English. the Greek word Arche translated beginning here carries the meaning of Architect as that is the English word derived from the Greek word Arche. Jesus is the beginner of all things (John 1:3 agrees with this statement)

Trinitarians force things in my opinion.

I understand your thoughts. I am here to clear that up if all possible. My hope is that everyone is saved by Grace through what our Glorious Lord Jesus has done for us! If you die today, do you know that you will be saved through this grace? that is why we are here, to save souls through the good news!

Yes, all things were made THROUGH the Firstborn of Creation, see Proverbs 8.

Wisdom in Proverbs is a personification of the virtue of wisdom for the purpose of emphisis of impact. Wisdom was "BROUGHT FORTH" (not created) to play a role in creation. Proverbs 3:19 God used his Wisdom, Understanding, and Knolledge to creat the world and everything in it. God did not have to Create his Wisdom, Understanding, and his knolledge but rather brought them forth, he possessed them from all eternity. He produced them as one produces evidence that already exist in a court.

It doesn't mean the Word already existed neccessarily, the meaning of "beginning" is a bit disputable. Does it refer to the beginning of Creation? Possibly.

What does John 1:3 say? Also Read 1John1:1-4, the Word was the Eternal Word of Life. i believe it calls the word the "Everlasting life that was with the Father". Now you are here telling people that this was created and that God had no wisdom before and had to create it? I'm looking at this from a distance and it looks very questionable from my view point.

Nothing in 1 John says anything close to this, what verse are you thinking of specifically?

Ill pull out my NWT which is a anti-trinitarian bible on this: Now remember that while reading this that you believe the Word was Created and had no existance at a point in eternity. Verse 1 says the "Word of Life" and verse 2 says "the Everlasting life which was with the Father". Does that sound created to you? Which brings me to a point i must make. That Jesus had Eternal Life before he emptied himself to become a man and that God Gave this eternal Life Back to him that he had before he emptied himself of it.

Talk about forcing things, it doesn't really say that at all.

Ok, Is the Father called the Beginning and End of all creation? Does he have a Beginning or an end? Then why force Jesus to have a beginning when Jesus is expressing the Fathers being fully and exactly as stated in Hebrews 2? Explain that and see what you mean by forcing things again...

Wanna go over those verses individually?

The Bible is a whole and should be read in context of the writing at hand. What we need to do is pray for each other and pray that God shows his truths through the Holy Spirit and not mans truths.

Read Proverbs 8 and Philo's Logos Theology which John and his intended audience were probably well acquainted with, John was trying to tell us that the "Firstborn of Creation", Wisdom incarnated, was the means which God's Creation came THROUGH.

I dont disagree with your statement in whole, but we disagree on the terms you use:

"Firstborn of Creation" - i believe Jesus is Firstborn the day he became human as Mary and God the Father now have a Firstborn son some 2000 years ago. that just as King David was jesses Firstborn son, he was the last son to be born. That the word Firstborn to a Jew meant the Son who will inherit the full portion of their Fathers kingdom. That Jesus is not only Creator of all things, that he is also heir to it, as the bible says

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

Wisdom incarnated - Gods Wisdom always existed. he brought it forth and produced it for his creation.

God's Creation came THROUGH Jesus - God created Through Jesus in the same way you build things Through your hands. i dont separate God and his word in creation, I believe they created in Harmony with each other. If I was to ask the Father God, he would credit Jesus with creating too.

in Love,
tom