Prophet Jesus (PBUH) Never Claimed Divinity

[Muffled]

[quote=Sufi;2142258]

Originally Posted by Green Kepi

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Matthew 5:17

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law. Matthew 5:18

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven Matthew 5:19

And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail. Luke 16:17

This is the meaning of being under the Law of Christ. It does not mean that the Christian is ignoring Mosaic law but only that the Law of Moses is being fulfiled in Christ for us.

"Thou shalt not murder" is not simply a law for us but an understanding of God's love for all people through Jesus who is living (continuously) His love in us.

[A-ManESL]

Originally Posted by Wannabe Yogi

I am a great fan of Dr Seyyed Hossein Nasr

He is always a pleasure to read indeed. I have recently started reading up on the traditionalism and Hossein Nasr belongs to that school. You might be interested in this other forum also, if you feel attracted to that school of thought.

Regards

[Wannabe Yogi]

Originally Posted by A-ManESL

He is always a pleasure to read indeed. I have recently started reading up on the traditionalism and Hossein Nasr belongs to that school. You might be interested in this other forum also, if you feel attracted to that school of thought.

Regards

He was the key note speaker at a Hindu meeting. I was very impressed. I have also read Frithjof Schuon and Martin Lings because of him. His book The Need for a Sacred Science is a good counter balance to modern thought.

[Islam432]

Originally Posted by Muffled

The truth is that Muslims do not believe the message of Jesus. Claiming that they believe Jesus is a messenger and then not believing the messge is antithetical.

I have proven otherwise on a thread in Religious Debates titled "Did Jesus say He is God."

This is not a fact; it is an assumption.

This statement is completely false.

First of all , we believe in revelation given to Jesus(Pbuh) not Bible but 'Injeel' which was the original form of Bible , the current Bible you see has been corrupted with time , it contains words of peter, paul , john,historians etc so its no longer in its pure form (some Christian scholars even agree to that) as it has mathematical errors ,historical contradiction's etc just to prove it

And the message of old prophet's isnt needed anymore

Just as bible says:

"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come."John 16:11-13

1. John chapter 14 verse 16:
"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever."

2. Gospel of John chapter 15 verse 26:
"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which
proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me."

3. Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 7:
"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not
come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you".

"Ahmed" or "Muhammad" meaning "the one who praises" or "the praised one" is almost the translation of the
Greek word Periclytos. In the Gospel of John 14:16, 15:26, and 16:7. The word 'Comforter' is used in the English translation for the Greek word Paracletos which means advocate or a kind friend rather than a comforter.
Paracletos is the warped reading for Periclytos. Jesus (pbuh) actually prophesised Ahmed by name. Even the
Greek word Paraclete refers to the Prophet (pbuh) who is a mercy for all creatures.

Some Christians say that the Comforter mentioned in these prophecies refers to the Holy Sprit. They fail to realise
that the prophecy clearly says that only if Jesus (pbuh) departs will the Comforter come. The Bible states that the
Holy Spirit was already present on earth before and during the time of Jesus (pbuh), in the womb of Elizabeth, and again when Jesus (pbuh) was being baptised, etc. Hence this prophecy refers to none other than Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh)

And the message of all the previous Messengers(Pbuh all) isn't needed anymore , because those messenger(Pbuh all) were sent to a particular tribe and for a particular time , But as Quran mentions Hazrat Muhammad (pbuh) is the last and final messenger sent by Allah and for all of the humankind for eternity , so other revelations aren't needed anymore

"We have not sent thee but as a universal (Messenger) to men, giving them glad tidings and warning them (against sin), but most men understand not."
[Al-Qur'an 34:28]

"And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said, 'O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me and giving glad tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmed.' But when he came to them with clear signs, they said, 'This is evident sorcery!' "

[Al-Qur'an Chapter 61:6]

And the point to be noted is no Muslim is a Muslim until he believes in all the messenger's of Allah which he sent from time to time including Prophet Jesus(pbuh) & Moses(pbuh)

Muslim is a person who submits his will to Allah and so is Jesus (pbuh) as he said, "not my will but thy will be done." John 5:30
Prophet jesus(Pbuh) was a muslim

[Islam432]

Originally Posted by K.Venugopal

Islam persistently says there is only one God. So what is meant by "oneness of God"?

Oneness of God (Tawheed) means devoting worship to Allah/God alone , no one else ,

A common Hindu believes everything is god(although it is against there scripture) , and A Muslim believes everything is God's

[Bowman]

Originally Posted by Islam432

First of all , we believe in revelation given to Jesus(Pbuh) not Bible but 'Injeel' which was the original form of Bible , the current Bible you see has been corrupted with time , it contains words of peter, paul , john,historians etc so its no longer in its pure form (some Christian scholars even agree to that) as it has mathematical errors ,historical contradiction's etc just to prove it

There is one slight problem here.

The fact that the word “Gospel” resides within the pages of the Koran, should be cause of great concern for followers of Islam.

الإنجيل= “al” + “injeeli” = “al-injeeli” = ‘The Gospel’

“Al-injeeli” is an Arabicized word from the Greek ευαγγελιον “euaggelion”.

The Greek word “euaggelion” means ‘Salvation through Jesus Christ’.

Hence, the very fact that the authors of the Koran had to borrow a word from outside Arabic, in order to relate to the Jesus Christ that they were writing about, totally decimates Islamic theology.

The borrowed word “al-injeeli” must impart the original meaning, otherwise there would be no need to borrow it in the first place….and this meaning is ‘Salvation through Jesus Christ’.

Time to wake up…Muslims…!

[Muffled]

Originally Posted by Bowman

There is one slight problem here.

The fact that the word “Gospel” resides within the pages of the Koran, should be cause of great concern for followers of Islam.

الإنجيل= “al” + “injeeli” = “al-injeeli” = ‘The Gospel’

“Al-injeeli” is an Arabicized word from the Greek ευαγγελιον “euaggelion”.

The Greek word “euaggelion” means ‘Salvation through Jesus Christ’.

Hence, the very fact that the authors of the Koran had to borrow a word from outside Arabic, in order to relate to the Jesus Christ that they were writing about, totally decimates Islamic theology.

The borrowed word “al-injeeli” must impart the original meaning, otherwise there would be no need to borrow it in the first place….and this meaning is ‘Salvation through Jesus Christ’.

Time to wake up…Muslims…!

This is how Wikipedia puts it: The term evangelical has its etymological roots in the Greek word for "gospel" or "good news": ευαγγελιον (evangelion), from eu- "good" and angelion "message." In that sense, to be evangelical would mean to be a believer in the gospel, that is the message of Jesus Christ

[Muffled]

Originally Posted by Islam432

First of all , we believe in revelation given to Jesus(Pbuh) not Bible but 'Injeel' which was the original form of Bible , the current Bible you see has been corrupted with time , it contains words of peter, paul , john,historians etc so its no longer in its pure form (some Christian scholars even agree to that) as it has mathematical errors ,historical contradiction's etc just to prove it

Ths is a flase claim. There is no revelation given to Jesus outside of the Bible. By rejecting the Bible, Jesus is rejected and your claim to believe in Him is worthless.

Although there are minor instances of this, there is not enough evidence to consider the whole as corrupt. The concept that minor corruptions indicate major ones is pure speculation and without foundation.

The words of the Gospel that were recorded by the authors were the words of Jesus. When John reports Jesus as saying "I and My Father are one," the words are the words of Jesus not of John.

There is no evidence that a pure form existed. The Bible that we have today contains the only recorded words of Jesus without any reference to any previous form.

[A Thousand Suns]

Originally Posted by Muffled

Ths is a flase claim. There is no revelation given to Jesus outside of the Bible. By rejecting the Bible, Jesus is rejected and your claim to believe in Him is worthless.

Although there are minor instances of this, there is not enough evidence to consider the whole as corrupt. The concept that minor corruptions indicate major ones is pure speculation and without foundation.

The words of the Gospel that were recorded by the authors were the words of Jesus. When John reports Jesus as saying "I and My Father are one," the words are the words of Jesus not of John.

There is no evidence that a pure form existed. The Bible that we have today contains the only recorded words of Jesus without any reference to any previous form.

Its already been answered ,your quoting bible out of context

"I and my father are one."

This verse, however is quoted out of context. The complete passage, starting with John 10:23, reads as follows:

"And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one."

John 10:23-30

In divinity? In a holy "Trinity"? No! They are one in PURPOSE. Just as no one shall pluck them out of Jesus' hand, so too shall no one pluck them out of God's hand.

Need more proof? Then read:

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one."

John 17:20-22

Is all of mankind also part of the "Trinity"?

Such terminology can be found in many other places, read for example:

"Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit,"

1 Corinthians 6:15-17

And also

"One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

Ephesians 4:6

And

"For as the (human) body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many."

1 Corinthians 12:12-14

Once we read the above verses and understand what the message was that Paul was trying to get across, then we can begin to understand his words in such places as

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

Ephesians 4:4

"St. Paul" was speaking about Christian unity, not about a plurality of gods merged into one body. As we shall soon see, he was completely ignorant of where his teachings would later lead, and how decades later, they would be the foundations which would spawn the "Trinity" doctrine.

p.s i like your colorful posts

[Muffled]

Originally Posted by A Thousand Suns

Its already been answered ,your quoting bible out of context

"I and my father are one."

This verse, however is quoted out of context. The complete passage, starting with John 10:23, reads as follows:

"And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one."

John 10:23-30

In divinity? In a holy "Trinity"? No! They are one in PURPOSE. Just as no one shall pluck them out of Jesus' hand, so too shall no one pluck them out of God's hand.

Need more proof? Then read:

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one."

John 17:20-22

Is all of mankind also part of the "Trinity"?

Such terminology can be found in many other places, read for example:

"Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit,"

1 Corinthians 6:15-17

And also

"One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

Ephesians 4:6

And

"For as the (human) body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many."

1 Corinthians 12:12-14

Once we read the above verses and understand what the message was that Paul was trying to get across, then we can begin to understand his words in such places as

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

Ephesians 4:4

"St. Paul" was speaking about Christian unity, not about a plurality of gods merged into one body. As we shall soon see, he was completely ignorant of where his teachings would later lead, and how decades later, they would be the foundations which would spawn the "Trinity" doctrine.

p.s i like your colorful posts

You are correct in requiring context. I was simply providing an instance of Jesus making a direct statement. I assume that you are corroborating that this word is from Jesus.

Yes, the context supports the divinty of Jesus according to His claim. Your "No" and "one purpose" are incorrect and not found in the context.

This is not proof that Jesus is only one in purpose with God.

No, only those who have the Holy Spirit residing within.

There is no "plurality of gods." There is only one God in the Father, the Son and the Paraclete.

Not everyone does but I like to have some way of referring back to what you have said. It is my desire to be responsive. Is that not what debate is all about?
I try to prove my points and disprove yours in a rebuttal. I will answer your rebuttal with further proofs.