If Space is Curved it has to be Infinite (hell, verse)

[linwood]

Originally Posted by Halcyon

I think they call it hyperspace, what we're expanding into, and our universe creates its own space-time as it grows. More than my tiny brain can handle.

I would state that space/time is already there

The matter of our universe is expanding into space that already exists simply becuase space cannot not exist as far as I can tell.

I realise this disagrees with relativity but it is in fact based on stronger observable evidence than that part of Einsteins theory.

Niether can ever be "proven" however.

[standing_on_one_foot]

Originally Posted by linwood

I would state that space/time is already there

The matter of our universe is expanding into space that already exists simply becuase space cannot not exist as far as I can tell.

I realise this disagrees with relativity but it is in fact based on stronger observable evidence than that part of Einsteins theory.

Niether can ever be "proven" however.

That's not the way things appear to be, however (I can ask Mom to help me explain a bit better when she's home, I don't know how it works myself). And you'd expect space/time to always exist because we can only exist in space/time, and so can't really concieve of it not being there...your observations are only based on what you observe in space/time, after all.

And does the idea of relativity really relate directly to this? I'm not seeing how, but then, my understanding of physics is based solely on what I've picked up around my parents and their friends.

[standing_on_one_foot]

Originally Posted by Draka

Depends on how you look at it. Being contained by a circle or sphere can be finite, but traversing one in infinite. A circle has no beginning or end, just constant eternal flow. Hence the symbolism of the wedding ring...eternal love and devotion with no beginning or end.

Forget to include this before...I see your point that the traversing is infinite, but the ring itself really isn't. There's a finite amount of ring there.

[linwood]

Originally Posted by standing_on_one_foot

That's not the way things appear to be, however (I can ask Mom to help me explain a bit better when she's home, I don't know how it works myself).

I`d welcome any input.
It is a confusing topic.

And you'd expect space/time to always exist because we can only exist in space/time, and so can't really concieve of it not being there...your observations are only based on what you observe in space/time, after all.

Yes they are only based on what I can observe as are all my beliefs.
I don`t see how you can believe something that cannot be supported with evidence.

I see no foundation in reality for Einsteins claim that space relies on matter to exist.
It`s..kinda silly.

[standing_on_one_foot]

Originally Posted by linwood

Yes they are only based on what I can observe as are all my beliefs.
I don`t see how you can believe something that cannot be supported with evidence.

I see no foundation in reality for Einsteins claim that space relies on matter to exist.
It`s..kinda silly.

I didn't say there's no evidence, I'm just saying there's no evidence you (or I) have happened to observe in our lives. I believe that people who look into this sort of thing see something there to lead to their conclusions (or perhaps they just got drunk one night and thought it sounded kinda cool? )

[standing_on_one_foot]

Alright, give me a minute here, Mom's around...

[linwood]

I didn't say there's no evidence, I'm just saying there's no evidence you (or I) have happened to observe in our lives. I believe that people who look into this sort of thing see something there to lead to their conclusions (or perhaps they just got drunk one night and thought it sounded kinda cool? [img]images/smilies/tongue.gif[/img])

I`m sorry standing, I don`t mean to put words in your mouth.

It is difficult to explain and I would recommend reading the Big Bang thread and the Manipulation of space thread to see where i`m coming from.
I`ve just recently gone through all of this with a few other posters here.

I`m not saying the theories science puts forth for the existence of space are just a drunken revelation although it may sound that way.

Science is dealing with mathmatical chances, choices, models and equations when they investigate these things.
In this process you often have to put forth a part of that model or equasion that there is no literal evidence for in order to get the model to work.

Often science doesn`t really mean what it`s saying in a literal sense but a mathmatical sense but it must say it to get across a larger point.
Laymen often take these models and conclusions as literal truth when they aren`t meant that way.

Common misconceptions about the big bang
Manipulation of Space

[standing_on_one_foot]

Originally Posted by linwood

Often science doesn`t really mean what it`s saying in a literal sense but a mathmatical sense but it must say it to get across a larger point.

Beg pardon, could you explain this sentence a bit more? It's not quite making sense to me here.

Mom's dragging out the physics books, this may take awhile

[linwood]

Beg pardon, could you explain this sentence a bit more? It's not quite making sense to me here.

Yes I should be more clear when dealing with this subject.
Sorry.

Take Max Plank for example.
Many of his ideas and models dealing with entropy and thermodynamics were based on assumptions.
Assumptions he had to make before he could continue, if he had not made those assumptions he would not have had a starting point for his equation and couldn`t even begin.

However many of Planks assumptions were shown to be correct by direct observational evidence when his models were complete.
The funny part was that he still didn`t know why they were correct just that they were.

In the topic we`re speaking of assumptons have been made in the same manner and they seem to work mathematically but I can see no way they can ever be "proven" by any experimental evidence because of the subject matter itself.

If space relies on matter we`ll never really know because anything we use to observe the phenomena will be made of matter and therefore space will exist.
If space is constant and infinite we`ll never know because who can reach the end of infinity?

It`s not observable.

[standing_on_one_foot]

We think of space and time as fundamental (there's an assumption for you). Apparently they're not. This not yet been explained to my satisfaction, and I don't think I shall understand it even when it is. I suppose "why not?" is as reasonable a question as "why?" in this case. Mom is right now telling me that I need to stop looking for a Hillel-style answer and start reading stuff on this if I want to understand it. I'm somewhat frustrated by this, but here's what I've got from the reading I've been doing.

Even empty (matter-less) space has quantum-mechanical structure. That's what makes it space, it has structure, it has these quantum-mechanical fields. This has, I am told, been measured. So basically, you need this energy on this tiny level for space. I don't get it. Mom has tried to explain and