Provisional nature of knowledge (dogma, religion, science)

[mball1297]

Originally Posted by stephenw

I accept evolutionary theory as sound. But is it testable? Or Big Bang theory?
What about results from tested hypothesis that I don't understand ?

Actually evolution is testable. You can watch species mutate over time to adapt to situations. The Big Bang...well, that's why it's "just a theory", right?

[stephenw]

Originally Posted by mball1297

Actually evolution is testable. You can watch species mutate over time to adapt to situations.

Bearing in mind that I am NOT arguing against evolutionary theory - if it had been tested and the results were robust would it not have moved past theory and have become evolutionary fact

[Halcyon]

Originally Posted by stephenw

I accept evolutionary theory as sound. But is it testable? Or Big Bang theory?
What about results from tested hypothesis that I don't understand ?

Well, you make a hypothesis and then go look for evidence. Usually in a laboratory environment you conduct experiments that try and disprove your hypothesis, if it can't be disproven then that's good evidence that the hypothesis is correct.

For hypothesis concerning past events, like the big bang or evolution of life, you look for evidence that your hypothesis predicts. Like with the big bang it was predicted that there should be a constant background level of radiation across the universe, as residue from the bang, it took a few years but they eventually found it.
With evolution we would expect to find transitional species in the fossil record, like whales and snakes with rudimentary legs, upright walking apes, fish with primative lungs etc, which of course we have found in an abundance.

[stephenw]

Originally Posted by Halcyon

For hypothesis concerning past events, like the big bang or evolution of life, you look for evidence that your hypothesis predicts. Like with the big bang it was predicted that there should be a constant background level of radiation across the universe, as residue from the bang, it took a few years but they eventually found it.
With evolution we would expect to find transitional species in the fossil record, like whales and snakes with rudimentary legs, upright walking apes, fish with primative lungs etc, which of course we have found in an abundance.

I largely agree with this (excepting that I think that cosmic background radiation was found by accident , the guys who found it weren't looking for it - didn't they think it was pigeon poop?)
My point is that what we expect to find depends on what we believe and when it comes to the big questions -I don't see a black and white divide between science and religion

[Halcyon]

Originally Posted by stephenw

I largely agree with this (excepting that I think that cosmic background radiation was found by accident , the guys who found it weren't looking for it - didn't they think it was pigeon poop?)

True.

Originally Posted by stephenw

My point is that what we expect to find depends on what we believe and when it comes to the big questions -I don't see a black and white divide between science and religion

Well, if we expect to find something with a scientific theory, then we'll either find it and prove the theory, or not find it and disprove the theory. With religion the theory is "valid" so long as someone believes in it.

[Rolling_Stone]

Originally Posted by stephenw

It is often asserted that one of the strengths of the scientific approach is the provisional nature of the understandings that it generates. I accept this.
I often see it held up as something that science 'has' over religious approaches. I do not accept this. I am a 'believer' who acknowledges that my understanding is provisional. Most other 'believers' I meet seem to be on a journey of discovery that renders their understandings provisional. Of course there are many dogmatics in religion. There are many in science too.
I cannot see the clear line between the two that is often pointed out in debate. Am I missing something?

Science, as powerful and successful as it is, doesn't tell us how to live.

[Dunemeister]

There are modes of knowing other than science and religion. Take history for example. We can't "test" historical reconstructions. All we can do is see whether it accommodates the evidence in such a way that it doesn't distort any of it better than its rivals. And most people wouldn't be so churlish as to think that we don't know anything about history. Caesar crossed the Rubicon river to invade Gaul. President Kennedy was indeed assassinated. The British used to have the largest empire the world has ever seen. Six million Jews were killed in the holocaust. None of these historical claims can be "tested" in a scientific way because they are all unique and unrepeatable. So we have a different way to assess historical knowledge claims. But they ARE knowledge claims.

For some reason, religion isn't allowed this privilege -- certainly not by the skeptics. They say that because religion can't be tested by the scientific method, its claims are dubious at best and fanciful and dangerous at worst. But what if the nature of the case simply demands a different manner of knowing, just as does history? Isn't it at least logically possible that we can come to actual, true religious knowledge by means other than those science uses?

Having made that appeal for the possibility of religious knowledge, I should also emphasize -- to stay on topic with this thread -- that religious knowledge is as provisional as any other. I'm reasonably convinced that I'm right, at least broadly, about religion. But my conviction is tempered by the knowledge that I could be wrong. Not just theoretically possibly wrong, but there is a live possibility that I'm wrong. I could have been massively deceived. I might have a strange sort of localized insanity that causes me to believe a thing I really shouldn't. But on balance, I don't find the alternatives convincing so, God help me, here I stand.

[Popeyesays]

23 April 1912
Talk to Bethel Literary Society
Metropolitan African Methodist Episcopal Church
M Street, NW, Washington, D.C.
Notes by Joseph H. HannenAs I stand here tonight and look upon this assembly, I am reminded curiously of a beautiful bouquet of violets gathered together in varying colors, dark and light. This is an evidence and indication that the United States of America is a just and free government, for I see black and white seated together in perfect harmony and agreement. Hearts are united. This just government makes such a meeting possible. You should thank God continually that you enjoy the security and protection of a government which furthers your development and rules with impartial equity and equality toward all, even as a father; for in the human world there is no greater blessing. This evening I will speak to you upon scientific subjects.
2The virtues of humanity are many, but science is the most noble of them all. The distinction which man enjoys above and beyond the station of the animal is due to this paramount virtue. It is a bestowal of God; it is not material; it is divine. Science is an effulgence of the Sun of Reality, the power of investigating and discovering the verities of the universe, the means by which man finds a pathway to God. All the powers and attributes of man are human and hereditary in origin--outcomes of nature's processes--except the intellect, which is supernatural. Through intellectual and intelligent inquiry science is the discoverer of all things. It unites present and past, reveals the history of bygone nations and events, and confers upon man today the essence of all human knowledge and attainment throughout the ages. By intellectual processes and logical deductions of reason this superpower in man can penetrate the mysteries of the future and anticipate its happenings.
3Science is the first emanation from God toward man. All created beings embody the potentiality of material perfection, but the power of intellectual investigation and scientific acquisition is a higher virtue specialized to man alone. Other beings and organisms are deprived of this potentiality and attainment. God has created or deposited this love of reality in man. The development and progress of a nation is according to the measure and degree of that nation's scientific attainments. Through this means its greatness is continually increased, and day by day the welfare and prosperity of its people are assured.
4All blessings are divine in origin, but none can be compared with this power of intellectual investigation and research, which is an eternal gift producing fruits of unending delight. Man is ever partaking of these fruits. All other blessings are temporary; this is an everlasting possession. Even sovereignty has its limitations and overthrow; this is a kingship and dominion which none may usurp or destroy. Briefly, it is an eternal blessing and divine bestowal, the supreme gift of God to man. Therefore, you should put forward your most earnest efforts toward the acquisition of science and arts. The greater your attainment, the higher your standard in the divine purpose. The man of science is perceiving and endowed with vision, whereas he who is ignorant and neglectful of this development is blind. The investigating mind is attentive, alive; the callous and indifferent mind is deaf and dead. A scientific man is a true index and representative of humanity, for through processes of inductive reasoning and research he is informed of all that appertains to humanity, its status, conditions and happenings. He studies the human body politic, understands social problems and weaves the web and texture of civilization. In fact, science may be likened to a mirror wherein the infinite forms and images of existing things are revealed and reflected. It is the very foundation of all individual and national development. Without this basis of investigation, development is impossible. Therefore, seek with diligent endeavor the knowledge and attainment of all that lies within the power of this wonderful bestowal.
5We have already stated that science or the attribute of scientific penetration is supernatural and that all other blessings of God are within the boundary of nature. What is the proof of this? All created things except man are captives of nature. The stars and suns swinging through infinite space, all earthly forms of life and existence--whether mineral, vegetable or animal--come under the dominion and control of natural law. Man through scientific knowledge and power rules nature and utilizes her laws to do his bidding. According to natural limitations he is a creature of earth, restricted to life upon its surface, but through scientific utilization of material laws he soars in the sky, sails upon the ocean and dives beneath it. The products of his invention and discovery, so familiar to us in daily life, were once mysteries of nature. For instance, man has brought electricity out of the plane of the invisible into the plane of the visible, harnessed and imprisoned that mysterious natural agent and made it the servant of his needs and wishes. Similar instances are many, but we will not prolong this. Man, as it were, takes the sword out of nature's hand and with it for his scepter of authority dominates nature itself. Nature is without the crown of human faculties and attributes. Man possesses conscious intelligence and reflection; nature does not. This is an established fundamental among philosophers. Man is endowed with volition and memory; nature has neither. Man can seek out the mysteries latent in nature, whereas nature is not conscious of her own hidden phenomena. Man is progressive; nature is stationary, without the power of progression or retrogression. Man is endowed with ideal virtues--for example, intellection, volition, faith, confession and acknowledgment of God--while nature is devoid of all these. The ideal faculties of man, including the capacity for scientific acquisition, are beyond nature's ken. These are powers whereby man is differentiated and distinguished from all other forms of life. This is the bestowal of divine idealism, the crown adorning human heads. Notwithstanding the gift of this supernatural power, it is most amazing that materialists still consider themselves within the bonds and captivity of nature. The truth is that God has endowed man with virtues, powers and ideal faculties of which nature is entirely bereft and by which man is elevated, distinguished and superior. We must thank God for these bestowals, for these powers He has given us, for this crown He has placed upon our heads.
6How shall we utilize these gifts and expend these bounties? By directing our efforts toward the unification of the human race. We must use these powers in establishing the oneness of the world of humanity, appreciate these virtues by accomplishing the unity of whites and blacks, devote this divine intelligence to the perfecting of amity and accord among all branches of the human family so that under the protection and providence of God the East and West may hold each other's hands and become as lovers. Then will mankind be as one nation, one race and kind--as waves of one ocean. Although these waves may differ in form and shape, they are waves of the same sea. Flowers may be variegated in colors, but they are all flowers of one garden. Trees differ though they grow in the same orchard. All are nourished and quickened into life by the bounty of the same rain, all grow and develop by the heat and light of the one sun, all are refreshed and exhilarated by the same breeze that they may bring forth varied fruits. This is according to the creative wisdom. If all trees bore the same kind of fruit, it would cease to be delicious. In their never-ending variety man finds enjoyment instead of monotony.