Is existence possible without God? (Creator, creation, experience, God)

[Guitar's Cry]

Originally Posted by Mestemia

That is, until you get to the creator.
Then the creator "just is"?

So what of the creators creator?
And that creators creator?
and the creators creators creator?
and so on and so forth.
Funny how theists tend to not dwell on the creator of their creator.

The creator of the creator is his creation.

[iLL_LeaT]

Originally Posted by PureX

The answer is that we don't know.

What we do know, or at least what we think we know, now, is that existence is made up of two things: energy, and the laws that control the way that energy behaves. We don't know what energy is, and we don't know the laws that control it's behavior, nor do we know where either of them come from or go to. But, energy expresses itself only in certain ways, and not in any or every way, and because it does so, all that exists, exists as it does.

Do you wish to call that mysterious force that is creating energy, and then governing it's behavior "God"? If so, then certainly the universe could not exist without "God". But if you assume that "God" exists apart from this mysterious source of energy and the factors that govern it, then the universe could exist without "God". Most folks define God AS that mysterious source of all that exists, so for them the answer is clear. But they have no proof one way or another, because like all of us, they just don't know, either.

So it's up to you. How do you choose to define "God"? That will give you your answer. But not THE answer.

See, I have always pictured God (if there is a God) as completely separate from this system. A sort of engineer who has used the resource from his realm to make our realm. But then a few more questions come up. Does our creator have a creator? And If God just made us in the same way an engineer makes a car, can he really promise an afterlife? I mean if I make a self aware robot, I can't promise it an afterlife.

[Francine]

Originally Posted by iLL_LeaT

I mean if I make a self aware robot, I can't promise it an afterlife.

Why not? Any computer program representing the robot's mind can be copied to another robot, or even let loose inside a simulation.

[PureX]

Originally Posted by iLL_LeaT

See, I have always pictured God (if there is a God) as completely separate from this system. A sort of engineer who has used the resource from his realm to make our realm. But then a few more questions come up. Does our creator have a creator? And If God just made us in the same way an engineer makes a car, can he really promise an afterlife? I mean if I make a self aware robot, I can't promise it an afterlife.

I suspect that you're way over anthropomorphizing "God". It would be very unlikely that this God (a mystery, remember) would "think" like we do. It's more likely that existence as we know it is a spontaneous expression of some divine will that is not constrained by thought or reason or personality.

[rojse]

Originally Posted by stephenw

I don't know, but it seems the same problem as what caused the big bang and the only solution that seems rational to me is something that exists outside time could have caused the big bang. This thing outside time may be called God?

But it still does not solve the problem that if the Big Bang needed a creator, why doesn't this creator need a creator?

[rojse]

Originally Posted by iLL_LeaT

Is existence possible without God?

Let me clarify what I mean by “existence.” I don't mean the existence of humans. I mean the system that we live in, AKA the universe.

Lets say, for a second, that the Big Bang is 100% correct. How did the atom get into space and time? And how did space and time come into existence so that the atom would have somewhere to be?

Has space and time and that atom always just been???????

I'm not so sure of any of these questions. What do you think?

Here are my thoughts (As of right this second). If the universe has always just been, then there may not be a God. However, It does not make since for this atom to be static for an infinite amount of time then just randomly explode.

If the universe came into existence at some point in time (if there was a beginning), then there must be a God. I mean nothing can only make nothing.

I think that the universe is possible without God.

I think that a lot, if not all, of the observations about how well-suited we are to this universe arise from the fact that we have to be alive to observe the universe. If there were no one alive, we could not make these observations.

Your musing that nothing can not create nothing seem logical at first, but does not bear any examination. If this is so, how did God himself come about? Even should you wish to avoid this question, how did God create matter and energy (something) out of nothing (the universe before the Big Bang?)

[iLL_LeaT]

Originally Posted by Francine

Why not? Any computer program representing the robot's mind can be copied to another robot, or even let loose inside a simulation.

I could copy its mind from one robot to another, but could I do that forever? infinity is a long time. At some point in time it life would suddenly end past the point of repair. With an infinite amount of time, it's utter end is inevitable.

[iLL_LeaT]

Originally Posted by PureX

I suspect that you're way over anthropomorphizing "God". It would be very unlikely that this God (a mystery, remember) would "think" like we do. It's more likely that existence as we know it is a spontaneous expression of some divine will that is not constrained by thought or reason or personality.

This is true. I was just trying to make a relation to make comprehension easier. But my point was that I see God as not apart of this system. And as a creator, not just an entity of our universe.

[Rolling_Stone]

Originally Posted by iLL_LeaT

Is existence possible without God?

Let me clarify what I mean by “existence.” I don't mean the existence of humans. I mean the system that we live in, AKA the universe.

Lets say, for a second, that the Big Bang is 100% correct. How did the atom get into space and time? And how did space and time come into existence so that the atom would have somewhere to be?

Has space and time and that atom always just been???????

I'm not so sure of any of these questions. What do you think?

Here are my thoughts (As of right this second). If the universe has always just been, then there may not be a God. However, It does not make since for this atom to be static for an infinite amount of time then just randomly explode.

If the universe came into existence at some point in time (if there was a beginning), then there must be a God. I mean nothing can only make nothing.

This is from a link I posted in another thread:

We can adapt Plato’s cave allegory to represent monistic idealism in the following way. The fire is replaced by the light of the sun (pure Awareness) coming in through the entrance to the cave, and the puppets are replaced by archetypal objects within the transcendent realm. The phenomenal world of matter and thoughts is merely the shadow of the archetypes in the light of consciousness. Here, we clearly see a complementarity of phenomenon and Noumenon. To look only at the shadows is to be unaware of Awareness. To be directly aware of Awareness is to realize that the phenomenal world is merely a shadow. The shadow world is what we perceive. Awareness can only be apperceived, i.e., realized by a knowing that is beyond perception. Apperception liberates one from the shackles of the cave, and exposes one to infinite freedom. Apperception is the proof that consciousness is all there is.

God exists (or his existence questioned) when we are shackled; when freed from our shackles, God disappears but remains as a finger pointing.