Occam's Razor; Dull and Over-Hiped (evolution, Biblical, God, Christian)

[Jayhawker Soule]

Originally Posted by linwood

I could further argue that Occams Razor is a philisophical justification for the primacy of parsimony.

You could, but I sure hope that you don't. Arguing that an heuristic predicated upon the primacy of parsimony serves as a philosophical justification for the primacy of parsimony would be a bit laughable.

[linwood]

Originally Posted by Deut. 32.8

But, at this point the debate is pretty much settled. You're (mis)using Occam's Razor to denigrate a position that you acknowledge may be formally correct. This in no way confirms Occam's Razor as helpful.

I didn`t use Occams Razor in this instance but went beyond it into specific evidence necessated by the occasion, which is what I think you`re getting at .

Whether I would have been justified in using it is the debate we`re having now..I think.
I don`t believe I was denigrating the positive position in the argument cited but rather pointing out the futilty of gaining any actual insight by inventing content that isn`t there.
I would like to ask (albeit a bit late) how it is formally correct to hold a position that is inferred on evidence that doesn`t exist?
It`s irrelevent anyway because I do see the point you`re making and agree with it, to an extent.
I`m just not convinced it is as useless as you`re saying.

linwood

, if the tool is indeed useful, surely you could find some application in the variegated world of science. If not, why not simply dispense with the tool?

With this statement I begin to see what you mean by "anecdotal"
I believe the tool is useful in the short run(anecdotal) but can see how during any eventual in-depth examination of any debate the position based on the Razor would need an attempt at falsification which in the long run would be the path one should have intitially taken.
Looking at it that way would make Occams Razor itself a victim Of Occams Razor.

Nevermind Deut, I may have gotten there in a very roundabout way but I think Isee what you mean.
At its best Occams Razor can be used as means to begin the formation of a position but cannot ultimately decide what "truth" is so why bother with it.

I concede.

[linwood]

Originally Posted by Deut. 32.8

You could, but I sure hope that you don't. Arguing that an heuristic predicated upon the primacy of parsimony serves as a philosophical justification for the primacy of parsimony would be a bit laughable.

Yes..I think it might be.
I can see how Occams Razor is far more speculative than I had thought it was.

[Ellie_A]

wow that was great guys... do another! I was at the edge of my seat

[linwood]

What about applying Occams Razor to specific events?

I can understand how it is irrelevent and even circular when applying it to speculative subjects but what about a specific event?

In the context of a specific event the Razor would be able to tell you where to look first for evidence needed to form a conclusion and would prioritize a chain of the most likely sources of evidence.

Isn`t this the basis of forensic science?

I believe it can be used in a scientific manner along these lines.

[Jayhawker Soule]

I walk into the house. My grandson is crying and there's milk all over the floor. An empty sippy-cup lies at his feet. Where do I go with this?

• My grandson dropped the cup and the milk spilled all over him and the carpet.
• My grandson was playing quietly on the floor when the garbage truck drove by. The truck was in poor repair and the engine rumbled and groaned as it pulled to a stop. Remarkably, the vibration of the noise matched the resonant frequence of the tabletop, which likewise began to vibrate. An empty Snapple bottle, inexplicably left on the table and on its side, proceeded to roll off the table and onto the floor. Startled, my grandson spun around but, in doing so, stepped on the bottle. The effect was to send the bottle skidding under the couch and out of sight, while it sent my poor grandson sprawling on the floor. Startled, the cat ...

Occam is useless.

[Jayhawker Soule]

[from Ellie's signature ...] Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

Exactly right, but absence of evidence is evidence of absence, while the concept of proof is mostly applicable to math, liquor, and law.

[linwood]

Originally Posted by Deut. 32.8

I walk into the house. My grandson is crying and there's milk all over the floor. An empty sippy-cup lies at his feet. Where do I go with this?

• My grandson dropped the cup and the milk spilled all over him and the carpet.
• My grandson was playing quietly on the floor when the garbage truck drove by. The truck was in poor repair and the engine rumbled and groaned as it pulled to a stop. Remarkably, the vibration of the noise matched the resonant frequence of the tabletop, which likewise began to vibrate. An empty Snapple bottle, inexplicably left on the table and on its side, proceeded to roll off the table and onto the floor. Startled, my grandson spun around but, in doing so, stepped on the bottle. The effect was to send the bottle skidding under the couch and out of sight, while it sent my poor grandson sprawling on the floor. Startled, the cat ...

Occam is useless.

I understand what you`re saying Deut but there are people out there who would think that the second choice was the rational one.

The fact that I know you`d choose the first one without ever even considering the other just means you have no ulterior motive.
People with an agenda to meet will put forth concepts that are just as ridiculous but far more subtle.


Occams Razor cuts through that crap and even if it doesn`t change the perspective of the one you are debating with it may very well change the direction of one with no agenda who may be watching .

When attempting to deconstruct something as real as a crime scene I still say it has merit.
In fact you`ve asked for a scientific basis for the use of Occams Razor and I submit that the foundation of forensic science is Occams Razor.

So to simplify you`ve shown me how Occams razor has little if any use when discussing the speculative but I still assert it has use when dealing with a reality that has more than one possible conclusion.

[Jayhawker Soule]

Originally Posted by linwood

So to simplify you`ve shown me how Occams razor has little if any use when discussing the speculative but I still assert it has use when dealing with a reality that has more than one possible conclusion.

Which is your right, but you've shown no such thing. As for forensics, the very concept of reasonable doubt is predicated upon the recognition that the most parsimonious explanation is not necessarily the correct one.

Respectfully, in my opinion you have yet to demonstate a single case, real or imaginary, where Occam's Razor lives up to its reputation.