Quran and Speed of light (reject, Creator, Earth, evolution)

[michel]

Of course, my very good friend Paul's answer cannot be "bettered".

Whilst I believe that Science and Religion are separated by a gulf, I sometimes wonder if science is not simply the "pinning down, proof and explanation of things that are all parts of God". As time goes on, and we insignificant little humans learn more and more science, I sometimes wonder if God/Allah isn't chuckling in his beard (if he is a he and if he has a beard) at our being so exited about what we consider to be such deep inroads into understanding what is around us.
Sounds silly? maybe.

[summia]

Originally Posted by michel

Of course, my very good friend Paul's answer cannot be "bettered".

I hav no idea whether you r replying for last post or OP.

Originally Posted by michel

Whilst I believe that Science and Religion are separated by a gulf, I sometimes wonder if science is not simply the "pinning down, proof and explanation of things that are all parts of God". As time goes on, and we insignificant little humans learn more and more science, I sometimes wonder if God/Allah isn't chuckling in his beard (if he is a he and if he has a beard) at our being so exited about what we consider to be such deep inroads into understanding what is around us.
Sounds silly? maybe.

Yeah! it sounds like silly for those who hav firm trust for sceince, altough for me " Science is nothing more then human observations and human observations may be correct or may not be"
If we go though the history of science we wil come to know " There is always a scientist behind the previous scientists to reject his idea!"

But Quran is the Book never changed during so many centuries, and it's a great miracle of Quran....

And as regard to the speed of light, I can't claim perfectly that Allah Almighty is indicating to the speed of light. May be there would come another evidience for this.....

But we can think for a while, it may be!

And if we'll become so curious about, why Allah Almighty didn't mentioned in the verse about speed of light directly, then it will be foolishness to Perfectly compare God's word with science. Coz God's word are not to prove the science but a guidance for the humanity....

[YmirGF]

Originally Posted by michel

Of course, my very good friend Paul's answer cannot be "bettered".

Whilst I believe that Science and Religion are separated by a gulf, I sometimes wonder if science is not simply the "pinning down, proof and explanation of things that are all parts of God". As time goes on, and we insignificant little humans learn more and more science, I sometimes wonder if God/Allah isn't chuckling in his beard (if he is a he and if he has a beard) at our being so exited about what we consider to be such deep inroads into understanding what is around us.
Sounds silly? maybe.

Not at all Michel. I keep wondering when science will "break through" the sub-atomic maze and prove there is something beyond the teensy particles. I think an alleged being such as "god" would understand our limited understanding and would likely completely appreciate our deep need to know things. Could it really be any other way for a “real god”? I just think of how we have been incredibly inquisitive since our advent. There is just something about what drives humans to understand their world in a highly intellectual way that is unlikely to be by chance. We must, however, accept the possibility that it could indeed be by chance and that there is no affectionate original "personality" who decided to have some fun one "day" to assuage his terminal boredom.

I do implicitly believe in a “god” but alas that vision is not how religion describes it to be. If anything it is far more alien than it is human and that is partially why it is so terribly hard to grasp. I suppose in some ways it is like ants trying to understand the totality of New York city or London. They could understand their local surroundings but could not possibly appreciate the concept of the city as a whole. Ah, the civilization of the psyche… but this is all getting a tad bit off topic.

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Originally Posted by summia

First of all, if you hav gone through the whole Thread (Discussion with YmirFG is important) I hav accepted the fact that " Quran can't be compare to sceintific facts coz sceintific facts are human observations and Quran is the Word of Creator of the universe."

The most important point for me is this verse:


دَبِّرُ ٱلأَمْرَ مِنَ ٱلسَّمَآءِ إِلَى ٱلأَرْضِ ثُمَّ يَعْرُجُ إِلَيْهِ فِي يَوْمٍ كَانَ مِقْدَارُهُ أَلْفَ سَنَةٍ مِّمَّا تَعُدُّونَ


He directeth the ordinance from the heaven unto the earth then it ascendeth unto Him in a Day, whereof the measure is a thousand years of that you reckon""(32:5)

I Believe and have a firm believe on what Our Creator narrates here, there is no doubt. But Man is curious about nature. He always remained in struggle for "How ansd Why"
My this nature encouraged me to find about "How can it be in one day (as mentioned in the verse)" but it don't mean that I had a doubt for Quran.
At least I found the relevent Atricle by a Muslim who explains this verse as a Speed of Light.
At that time i accepted his view coz I had no evidience about this verse ever before.
Then after the whole discussion I concluded that It is foolishness to compare God's word with human observations coz there may be chance of mistake in human observations but there is no doubt in Creator's word.
That is the conclusion!!!

Personally, I think it's rather silly to take a verse which, to me, seems to say that God views things differently than humans, and that God's sense of time is not as our sence of time, and then squish it around until it seems to come out as some magical formula for the speed of light.

To the OP: in addition to the fudge factor problem that I mentioned before, I think you need to address a few things to have this taken seriously:

- first, that God did intend this passage to be a way to figure out the speed of light. This is not at all obvious to me, and I don't think your article does a good job of justifying this assumption.
- second, that "a thousand years" is not simply 1,000 revolutions of the Earth around the Sun, but is actually 12,000 lunar months.

I think the first one is the important one, though.

[YmirGF]

Originally Posted by 9-10ths_Penguin

To the OP: in addition to the fudge factor problem that I mentioned before, I think you need to address a few things to have this taken seriously:
-----------------------------
- first, that God did intend this passage to be a way to figure out the speed of light. This is not at all obvious to me, and I don't think your article does a good job of justifying this assumption.
------------------------------
...the first one is the important one, though.

A most astute observation. Enjoy the furballs... err... frubals.

[summia]

Hey guys very sad!

Talking so much and understanding so less!

And i think if i post something then surly thread will be go out from the orignal topics.

And YmirGf, I really respect you, but after you answers, it show a deep egressive behavior!

Leave it now!
I think I hav clearly mentioned in all my posts,

"Sceince is seprated to religion by value"
"It May be relate or may not be"

But in case of speed of light, we cant say Surly about "the perfect approach as in the verse"

But we can estimate "It could be"

But if your try is to prove false this verse, "Then it is not! coz may be in future there can come any Sceintific evidence that has perfectly match to the verse"

Here people are shouting that I'm totally separating Sceince to Religion, No it's really not!

[YmirGF]

Originally Posted by summia

Hey guys very sad!

Why is it sad that others do not share your specific opinions, Summia? Is it sad for us... or sad for you?

Originally Posted by summia

Talking so much and understanding so less!

Hmm. I do resent that sort of chatter when people encounter ideas that are different from yours. Are you an expert on human communication and human understanding? Are you an expert on physics? Are you an expert on anything... aside from the study of the Qur'an and the life of Prophet Muhammed [pbuh] ?

Originally Posted by summia

And i think if i post something then surly thread will be go out from the orignal topics.

Summia that is the way of threads. You have to expect that sort of thing. We do try to stay on topic but it is often not so cut and dried to do so.

Originally Posted by summia

And YmirGf, I really respect you, but after you answers, it show a deep egressive behavior!

Summia there is nothing wrong with agressive behavior especially when the speaker of said thoughts has a very good point. I always find it breathtaking that when people have the temerity to disagree with Muslims they tend to get all huffy and dismissive, such as you are demonstrating.

Originally Posted by summia

Leave it now!
I think I hav clearly mentioned in all my posts,

Hmmm. So are we now being dismissed like unruly children? Is that supposed to be "respectful"? You tell us that you have come to learn but that seems to be somewhat disingenuous. It seems to be more of a case of you (and people like yourself) setting us straight... straight towards your way of thinking.

Originally Posted by summia

"Science is separated to religion by value"
"It May be relate or may not be"

But in case of speed of light, we cant say Surly about "the perfect approach as in the verse"

True, you can say that but when your"perfect approach" bears little resembalance to reality it tends to destroy ones credibility. In essence, your argument is a "red herring" or logical fallacy. Mary23 (another terribly young Muslim zealot here on RF) was/is especially adept at logical fallacies but I don't believe for a second she understood what we were trying to say. I don't believe for a second that she was/is, for example, even slightly interested in anything anyone had to say.The simple fact is that anyone who disagrees with the Qur'an they are labelled as being so obviously wrong as the Qur'an is infallible and that is simply not reasonable.

Originally Posted by summia

But we can estimate "It could be"

But Summia, you can say that about aliens kidnapping people and taking them on space ships. It COULD be real, even though there is no incontrevertable evidence to support the idea. You could say that Usama Bin Hidin' (Laden) is a really cool guy and grossly misunderstood by the "west" although that might be a tad difficult to prove. It COULD be true however. ANYTHING COULD BE TRUE... that is why we endeavor to find the facts... (I.E. the scientific method).

Originally Posted by summia

But if your try is to prove false this verse, "Then it is not! coz may be in future there can come any Sceintific evidence that has perfectly match to the verse"

Sadly you are coming from the assumption that the Qur'anic verses that are quoted are legitimate and infallible. However we have no reasonable way to prove the legitemacy of said verses. All we hear is Muslims insisting that it is the word of God, because IT IS the word of God. Are you an expert on messages from the Almighty? Don't you think that position is a tiny bit arrogant?

Main Entry: ar·ro·gant
Pronunciation: -g&nt
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin arrogant-, arrogans, present participle of arrogare
1 : exaggerating or disposed to exaggerate one's own worth or importance often by an overbearing manner <an arrogant official>

Originally Posted by summia

Here people are shouting that I'm totally separating Science from Religion, No it's really not!

According to whom? You? Other Muslims? Summia you simply must accept the simple fact that even the Qur'an may be in error otherwise you are not approaching the problem logically. You cannot possibly prove that the Qur'an is immutable and without error, so what you are saying is that you really really really really believe that it is true. You want to believe it is true. All I want is the truth not the babbling of what is essentially a spiritual cheerleader babbling about how great their brand of religion is. The important thing is our connection to god or All That Is. When you have that connection the pathetic words in man's infantile books tend to lose their meaning.