After Science, What's Left For Religion? (reject, salvation, beliefs, evolution)

[roli]

[quote]

Quote Roli
Science is a sudy to accumulate knowledge, a process, not a God
Not when you have seen the evidence that they say is contrary and when you study the complexities of creation not to mention when the the Holy Spirit lives inside a believer and the things of God are as real to the christian as the writing on this screen,not because they make sense to the mind but because they are revealtion in the spirit which the scientific community,evolutionists give no weight to compared with visual and numerical facts
I see the extensive evidence that out weighs evolution and supports creation,but more so the logic to me that says, anything created has complex design and functions under governing laws that regulate it's existence,it has intent ,purpose,logic,complexity and order in it's existence in this world and must conclude without a shadow of doubt intelligent design behind it.
Does that really not make sense to those intelligent minds who oppose intelligent design or is there a willful ignorance,a playing the fool ,to prove their point and help them to better live their lives with no conscience or moralistic boundaries.

It amazes me that some of the most intelligent minds believe in evolution,I know their reluctance to share the truth of what they truly see in their daily studies of life for many is because of the intimidation from superiors,the security of their scientific research grants and their reputation and image among collegues.
The contridiction of theories with evolutionists is staggering especially if I went to one of those intelligent scientific minds and used their own logic and said here is a hummingbird,it just evolved through a scientific process called evolution random chance . Believe it,that is the wool that is pulled over the eyes of the kids in our schools ,they only believe it because they are told to,and not givenb a chance to use their own logic.

By Roli
After science and the exhaustion of man's capabilities,know how,ingenuity,and over active obsession to be proven right,then and only then will God reveal himself to those who call on him from a humble heart.But we want tangible evidence.....
That will never happen fully,man is autonomous unto God and that is a fixed reality
Our excessive pursuit of knowledge has not really solved the most important social issues we are faced with,still we march on to research,design and consruct theories,infrastructures,overlooking our demoralized social state.
God upon revealtion to a person does so through their senses,as it may not be a in the most explainable scientific manner as some require,it is a felt experience.

Science definition
the state of knowing : knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding
2 a : a department of systematized knowledge as an object of study b : that may be studied or learned like systematized knowledge
3 a : knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through scientific method b : such knowledge or such a system of knowledge concerned with the physical world and its

Religion(rules,traditional dogma) may function within these scientific perimeters but the Holy Spirit of God operates outside the scientific arena and that is not logical and therefore disgarded by so called intelligent men.

[Æsahættr]

Originally Posted by roli

Our excessive pursuit of knowledge has not really solved the most important social issues we are faced with

I think the social progress made in the world over the past hundred years is not to be dismissed so lightly. Medicine, psychology and sociology have all made huge contributions to improving the human condition. If you want perfection then your standards are too high. Progress is undeniable though.

[roli]

Originally Posted by Æsahættr

I think the social progress made in the world over the past hundred years is not to be dismissed so lightly. Medicine, psychology and sociology have all made huge contributions to improving the human condition. If you want perfection then your standards are too high. Progress is undeniable though.

I did not say that we have not made progress, that would be completely ignorant on my part as the technological age we live in is evident.
I like to think I am not as blind as you have stated.
As a matter of fact the book of Daniel indicates that in the end times their will be an increase of knowledge and in the past 100yrs, there has been more technological advancement then in all time before,
I did however say that man in their pursuit and achievement of knowledge and innovation and technological advancement and the empowerment it instills in man for their accomplishments is fleeting and has no real effect on the moral fibre of our society which originates from the family unit and will be the rise or fall of our country ,it is just a matter of time.
The media promotes degenerate and immoral behavior encouraging and brainwashing people to do what feels good and you are a free moral agent to do as you please as it is relative anyways.

[eudaimonia]

Originally Posted by Sunstone

It's often said that science has progressively replaced religion in our lives. But is this true? Has science really crowded out religion?

Correction, science and philosophy will together crowd out religion.

In my dreams, though. I expect religion to exist as long as humanity does.


eudaimonia,

Mark

[Æsahættr]

Originally Posted by roli

I did however say that man in their pursuit and achievement of knowledge and innovation and technological advancement and the empowerment it instills in man for their accomplishments is fleeting

Perhaps the million who have lived full lives thanks to technology, when otherwise they would have died as children, would disagree with your that it is a fleeting empowerment.

[MdmSzdWhtGuy]

Originally Posted by Æsahættr

Perhaps the million who have lived full lives thanks to technology, when otherwise they would have died as children, would disagree with your that it is a fleeting empowerment.

I, personally survived my 5th month of life, in spite of pneumonia, due, at least in part to an oxygen tent. No amount of praying 200 or 2,000 years ago would have kept my lungs from filling with fluid and killing me, but an oxygen tent and some anti-biotics sure did the trick.

Now whether I, or those around me, are better or worse off, for me having survived, is a question that I suppose remains open to debate.

B.

[Spirit Channeller]

Science and Religion are very important to each other.
Eventually the New Age Movement and communication with Life beyond Death will prove Everlasting Life the way Jesus taught us.
When Scientists find a way to prove this to themselves and I believe they could do that by setting up a Research group where each Scientists set out to learn how to communicate with the Afterlife and exchange ideas with each other and offer some proof to the general public who refuse to believe in communication with the After Life and I believe when that happens it will be as important a scientific project as looking for Life on other Planets.
Even Athiests who say they don't believe in God will one day die and when they do they will learn that their intelligence and memories and feelings leave the physical body and go to the Spirit World which is Labeled everlasting Life by Jesus who as we know claimed to be the Channel for God and even then he had a hard time selling his ideas and it was only after those who opposed him killed him that he was martered and became the power that he is today.
But back when he claimed to be a Channell for God he had all sorts of problems and today Psychics who try to talk to the average person about channelling and Life after Death they are called charletons and dillussional and told they need to take medication and all sorts of things and so we haven't come far from when Jesus tried to tell nonbelievers that he was channelling the word of God.
So yes eventually Creation will be proven to most people and so will Evolution because over the years and into the future we will continue to Evolve just as we have since the beginning of time.

[Jayhawker Soule]

Define religion.

[Fluffy]

Heya Roli,

Originally Posted by Roli

Science is a sudy to accumulate knowledge, a process, not a God

What is your definition of knowledge, belief and faith? I personally do not believe that science can attain knowledge since it is based on empirical data but I assume that is because we are using different definitions of knowledge.

Originally Posted by Roli

Not when you have seen the evidence that they say is contrary and when you study the complexities of creation not to mention when the the Holy Spirit lives inside a believer and the things of God are as real to the christian as the writing on this screen,not because they make sense to the mind but because they are revealtion in the spirit which the scientific community,evolutionists give no weight to compared with visual and numerical facts

Why do you feel that the writing on your screen is real? To me, that is not very real at all. You choose to believe your senses are accurate. Everybody either believes that their senses cohere with an objective reality or that the objective reality is irrelevant since we can only access our sensory data. Science, I believe, takes the latter view and works with empirical data regardless of whether that empirical data coheres with an objective reality. It is an attempt to understand and predict the phenomenon that we percieve. It makes no claim that what we percieve is an objective reality.

I view science and religious belief based on religious experience to be the same thing except that science is more rigorously tested and understood.

I see the extensive evidence that out weighs evolution and supports creation,but more so the logic to me that says, anything created has complex design and functions under governing laws that regulate it's existence,it has intent ,purpose,logic,complexity and order in it's existence in this world and must conclude without a shadow of doubt intelligent design behind it.

If you like, I would be happy to debate the teleological arguments with you on a seperate thread (so as to not derail this one) but I do think that they are very flawed and easily defeated.

Originally Posted by Roli

Does that really not make sense to those intelligent minds who oppose intelligent design or is there a willful ignorance,a playing the fool ,to prove their point and help them to better live their lives with no conscience or moralistic boundaries.

It does not make sense because the teleological arguments are full of holes, not because scientists are deluded/unintelligent.

Originally Posted by Roli

It amazes me that some of the most intelligent minds believe in evolution,I know their reluctance to share the truth of what they truly see in their daily studies of life for many is because of the intimidation from superiors,the security of their scientific research grants and their reputation and image among collegues.

That is certainly a possibility but, so far, a completely unsupported one. I have to admit that I am slightly more sceptical of conspiracy theories but I'm willing to keep an open mind if you wish to produce some evidence. However, I think that this again would best be saved for another thread. If you want to start one, I'll be happy to participate.

Originally Posted by Roli

The contridiction of theories with evolutionists is staggering especially if I went to one of those intelligent scientific minds and used their own logic and said here is a hummingbird,it just evolved through a scientific process called evolution random chance . Believe it,that is the wool that is pulled over the eyes of the kids in our schools ,they only believe it because they are told to,and not givenb a chance to use their own logic.

I was never really taught the theory of evolution at school. I found the explanation given to be of a very poor standard and I came away with a whole draft of misconceptions until I did my own research into online. One such misconception I had was that it was based on "random chance". However, this is fairly understandable since at GCSE level, teachers are under a huge amount of pressure to fit in all the topics and often have to concentrate on helping students to understand the overall idea rather than the mechanics so that they could continue a more indepth study at a higher level if they so chose.

Originally Posted by Roli

After science and the exhaustion of man's capabilities,know how,ingenuity,and over active obsession to be proven right,then and only then will God reveal himself to those who call on him from a humble heart.But we want tangible evidence.....

Whilst I am critical of science's so called "knowledge", I am equally critical of any attempt to ignore the request for evidence. Going back to the whole perception dealio, there is no way of knowing whether what you have percieved is God or an evil daemon. Suggesting that faith is in some way superior to evidence is going to require better justification that what you have provided so far.

Originally Posted by Roli

God upon revealtion to a person does so through their senses,as it may not be a in the most explainable scientific manner as some require,it is a felt experience.

It is evident that in order to percieve God, it would have to happen through those things we use to percieve. However, as I have said above, all we can affirm is the internal consistence of our perceptions not whether they are true.

Science definition
the state of knowing : knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding
2 a : a department of systematized knowledge as an object of study b : that may be studied or learned like systematized knowledge
3 a : knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through scientific method b : such knowledge or such a system of knowledge concerned with the physical world and its

If you like. That simply redefines the word knowledge to be synonymous with belief, however.

Originally Posted by Roli

Religion(rules,traditional dogma) may function within these scientific perimeters but the Holy Spirit of God operates outside the scientific arena and that is not logical and therefore disgarded by so called intelligent men.

Philosophy also operates outside the scope of science yet it is entirely based on logic. The same goes for Mathematics. The only reason religion is discarded is when it tries to make philosophical, mathematical or scientific claims (ie claims that are logical in nature) when it is not a logical nor illogical system.