i am lost (Jesus, Creator, Torah, beliefs, doom)

[michel]

Originally Posted by bradleykavin

I put my post in this science vs religion only because i have this debate with myself all the time. I am 17, and currently have divorced parents. my father is jewish, and mother is christian. neither of them are very religious, we celerbate the more popular holidays and never ever attend church or temple. a girl that im very close with, just recently became a very religious christian due to some events in her life. regaurdless, seeing her having a religious awakening has sparked me into finding my beliefs. i have a very hard time believing in jesus, that hes the son of god for many reasons. i do though, believe in god,and that he created humans, not nessessarily though adam and eve but possibly created the big bang, thus, humans. i believe in aliens, and that we are definitely not the only intelligent life in this universe. someone help me please, i hope i have come to the right place. my real question is, could someone argue how jesus is the savior, and why he, did things and is more special than any other man that has healing abilities. how could we not be the only life out there? how does the bible interpret the big bang, or evolution? how does the bible work with a time period such as ours now, where we have cell phones and computers, child pornography and constant swearing in movies? if we are all sinners, and so few that are true to their religion, are we all doomed for an eternity of fire and burning in hell? is there a hell? lol my questions could go on forever. i hope i came to the right place

You have come to a right place!

You seem to have had a lot to put up with revently, and I am hardly surprized that you feel a bit confused. In fact, I would go so far as to say that you sound pretty 'grounded' for someone who has had so much to put up with going on around him.

Your questions are rather wide ranging, and a bit difficult to answer without writing a book.

But I will tell you how I feel; which is partly in response to your request for a description of why Christ is so important.

Christ is the son of God, incarnate on Earth, to try to bring us all the message of how we should live. The other part of his message is that we should love each other unconditionally, and try not to sin.

I say 'try', because, as humans, we are pretty weak, and we do tend to be easily tempted into doing things that deep down we know we ought not do.

But that's O.K, as long as you truly are sorry for what you have done wrong, ask for God's forgiveness, and make a genuine concerted effort not to do the same mistake.

At the end of it all, whether you are a Christian, a Muslim, or an athiest (as far as I am concerned), as long as you have led a good life, and God can see that your heart is good, and filled with good intentions, you'll be O.K.

As far as I am concerned (and I know quite a few here agree with me), there is no hell; if you find yourself thinking about God, and want 'to become involved', well then, read a bit about various faiths, go to a service or two with your girlfriend, see how they feel. oen your heart, and if you feel something, then try to find out what that is.

I believe God leaves plenty of hints about his existance for us to see; if we see them, and follow them up, well, it makes my life better, as far as I am concerned.

Forget your pornography, your mobiles, whatever (they are all things made by man); you have the choice as to whether you will use any of these things for Good or for bad reasons. I guess God hopes you'll use them for good reasons.

[Endless]

But that means all those people who haven't even heard of jesus, i.e. died before missionaries got to them or simply haven't been exposed to christian dogma, will go to hell. That seems a bit unfair.
At anyrate, I'd rather go to hell than have to spend an eternity with the sick mutha that is the Abrahamic god. Vengence and Jealousy are not what I would attribute to "merciful" god.

That's not quite true - what about all the people in the Old testament who were Godly people? Fairness is not something you have to worry about when it is in the hands of a just God who can do no wrong.
Vengence and Jealousy. It depends on whether you look at the two of these from human comprehension of the terms or God's viewpoint.
If God brings judgement on a sin, then that is vengence - God has that right because he is the judge. If God did not want his people (Israelites) to engage in the sinful activities of the people's around them, then it is jealousy when he sees them sinning. But that is righteous jealousy - because he wants them to be free from sin, rather than tangled up in it.
Your view on the Arbrahamic God is skewed because you are looking at it from the viewpoint that he is a tyrant or as you put it 'sick mutha'. If you actually look from the viewpoint that God is love, just, Holy and awesome then perhaps you will begin to see what God did in a new light - the true light.

[Fade]

Originally Posted by Endless

That's not quite true - what about all the people in the Old testament who were Godly people? Fairness is not something you have to worry about when it is in the hands of a just God who can do no wrong.

Who says God can do no wrong? The Bible? Fairness certainly isn't something that your God seems to put much stock in, that is for sure. Was it Jacob who stole his brothers birthright and was rewarded by God? Seems perfectly fair to me.

Originally Posted by Endless

Vengence and Jealousy. It depends on whether you look at the two of these from human comprehension of the terms or God's viewpoint.

We were made in his image so therefore it stands to reason that our viewpoint is the same as his.

Originally Posted by Endless

If God brings judgement on a sin, then that is vengence - God has that right because he is the judge. If God did not want his people (Israelites) to engage in the sinful activities of the people's around them, then it is jealousy when he sees them sinning. But that is righteous jealousy - because he wants them to be free from sin, rather than tangled up in it.

What a load of horse manure.

Originally Posted by Endless

Your view on the Arbrahamic God is skewed because you are looking at it from the viewpoint that he is a tyrant or as you put it 'sick mutha'. If you actually look from the viewpoint that God is love, just, Holy and awesome then perhaps you will begin to see what God did in a new light - the true light.

Yea, Hitler was a good bloke if you were a Nazi.

[Endless]

Fade,
Let me ask you this - have you ever read through the Bible and not just stories here and there? If you have not then you cannot honestly expect me to consider your opinion on the Bible to be based on anything logical. You have a preconceived idea - where exactly it originates from i don't know - but i doubt very much that it originates from you reading the Bible and making up your own mind.
Perhaps you should read it and make an unbiased judgement on what is exactly written.

What a load of horse manure.

Is it really? Had you read the Bible you would come across the following on God's jealousy:

Ex 34:12 "Take heed to yourself, lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land where you are going, lest it be a snare in your midst.
13 "But you shall destroy their altars, break their sacred pillars, and cut down their wooden images
14 '(for you shall worship no other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God),
15 "lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they play the harlot with their gods and make sacrifice to their gods, and one of them invites you and you eat of his sacrifice,

All to do with not wanting the Israelites to sin - indulging in sin is like allegiance to another master, hence the reason why God is jealous that we should do right. Perhaps in the same way that if you had children you would not want them going out to a strip club, but rather listening to you - you are jealous that they do the right thing.
I'm not going to dwell on this, because this is not the place, but consider the following definitions of jealous from the dictionary.

1. Fearful or wary of being supplanted; apprehensive of losing affection or position.
2. 1. Resentful or bitter in rivalry; envious: jealous of the success of others.
   2. Inclined to suspect rivalry.
3. Having to do with or arising from feelings of envy, apprehension, or bitterness: jealous thoughts.
4. Vigilant in guarding something: We are jealous of our good name.
5. Intolerant of disloyalty or infidelity; autocratic: a jealous God.

You are using a definition of jealousy that is not intended nor meant by the Hebrew, hence your distorted view.

But read it for yourself Fade, if not at least so you can say that you have read it and made up your own mind on what it teaches and who it portrays God as.

[PureX]

Originally Posted by bradleykavin

my real question is, could someone argue how jesus is the savior, and why he, did things and is more special than any other man that has healing abilities.

Obviously, there are lots of different answers to this question, depending upon who you ask. Different people view Jesus differently.

To me, Jesus is a character in a story. I don't know if the story is historically true, or partly true, or completely false, but I don't think that matters. What matters to me is that the message of the story is true. The message of the story is that God's love acting within us and through us toward each other can heal us and save us from ourselves ... if we will let it. People say that Jesus was God because in the story Jesus was the human embodiment of God's love and forgiveness. And it was through this human embodiment of God's love and forgiveness (that we call "Christ") that mankind learned that we could be saved from our own fear and greed and violence and stupidity, and so the story of Jesus as the manifestation of God's love is called the "gospel" (meaning the "good news"). And it IS good news.

But it's also a challenge. It's a challenge because not everyone is willing to allow themselves to become human expressions of God's love and forgiveness as Jesus did, and so may very well wish to abuse and victimize those who do. "Turning the other cheek" is a very difficult and dangerous thing to do in a world where not everyone believes in the healing power of God's love and forgiveness. Jesus himself was brutally murdered when he "turned the other cheek" to some frightened, selfish, and violent people. But still, he believed in the saving power of God's love and forgiveness so much, that he suffered even torture and death to exemplify it's message for the rest of us. And so have many other people in the years since.

We have been promised, and in fact it's only common sense, that if we will let ourselves become the embodiment of God's love and forgiveness, to each other, as Jesus did, that "heaven" and Earth would become one and the same place. But to accomplish this, we need to find the courage to be the first ones to "turn the other cheek" to those who have not yet recognized or accepted this message and pathway to our universal salvation.

Christ is both a great message of hope, and a great challenge to each of us, at the same time. Are you (and I) willing to set aside our own fears and desires and allow ourselves to become human vessels of God's love and forgiveness to others? Sometimes I am, and sometimes I'm not. I struggle with this challenge every day.

Yet I do believe in the message of hope and salvation that the story of Jesus' life and death conveys. I have myself been healed and saved from a terminal addiction by God's love and forgiveness as it was expressed to me through other people. So I know that Jesus' message is true. But I still fail to allow myself to become the servant of that love to others, sometimes ... even often. And each time I have to forgive myself and try again, just as I have to forgive others when they fail, too. But every day's a new day, and a new chance to love and to be loved, and I do think my life is a kind of "heaven". I am very, very grateful for every moment of it, and I'm not just saying that.

Originally Posted by bradleykavin

how could we not be the only life out there? how does the bible interpret the big bang, or evolution? how does the bible work with a time period such as ours now, where we have cell phones and computers, child pornography and constant swearing in movies? if we are all sinners, and so few that are true to their religion, are we all doomed for an eternity of fire and burning in hell? is there a hell? lol my questions could go on forever. i hope i came to the right place

The bible is just a collection of religious stories, and poems, and platitudes, and whatnots. Human beings wrote those texts and what they wrote represents how those human beings perceived and experienced "God". But man's idea of God is just man's idea of God. Take from these ideas what you find good and useful, and leave the rest behind. Don't worship holy books as if they were "God's commands". They aren't. And doing that is called idolatry.

Christ is not a religion, and you don't have to follow a religion to be a "Christian". Christ is God's love expressed in human form. If we learn to look for that love being expressed, in the daily activities of the people around us, we can learn to see Christ at work, right before our eyes. And if we are willing, we can become the expression of that love to others, too. It's not about religion. It's about love and forgiveness, one human (or alien, if they should happen by) to another.

Well, this is how I view "Jesus the savior", and why he's important to me. I hope this helps you out in some way. And thank you for being both honest and curious. Both of those traits will serve you very well in your life, I think.

[evearael]

This is my advice:
Pick up a good version of the Tanach (I'm partial to the Stone Edition) & Christian Bible (I'm partial to the New Oxford Annotated Bible), and read through them to undo any misconceptions you have of either faith from unobservant parents. Pick up a copy of the Koran, Tao Te Ching, Bhagavad Gita, and any other religious text that you come across and read them. Meditate and pray on it. Read a book on physics or biology (Schroedinger's Cat and the Search for Reality comes to mind...). If any of the texts seem to speak to you, search out more information about it. It is important that you come to faith on your own terms... you must find it for yourself. Don't let anyone pressure you or pull you into a faith that isn't right to you.

[bradleykavin]

so, essentially..the bible is a collection of stories from all kinds of people speaking about how god affected their life, and or, how they interpret god/jesus. so essentially, we have the ten commandments, the bible for assistance in interpretation, but most imporantly, our own hearts and minds to create/believe what we want? is this true with the torah, or other "bibles" ? and by the way, thank you all so much for helping me out. im actually a part of another forum about dodges, and its funny to see that on that forum guys on their are super competitive about their trucks, and yet here, when we speak of our religion, it seems as though everyone is so respectfull of eachother. really cool

[Fade]

Originally Posted by Endless

Fade,
Let me ask you this - have you ever read through the Bible and not just stories here and there? If you have not then you cannot honestly expect me to consider your opinion on the Bible to be based on anything logical. You have a preconceived idea - where exactly it originates from i don't know - but i doubt very much that it originates from you reading the Bible and making up your own mind.
Perhaps you should read it and make an unbiased judgement on what is exactly written.

Endless, your patronising attitude is becoming more than a little tiresome. My father was a minister for an Anglican church and so I was in church before I went to school. At last count I have read the bible from beginning to end 4 times. I've struggled through the Koran twice and even skimmed the book of mormon a few times.
It is beautifully ironic that you would bring logic into the discussion since belief in the bible is anything but logical. I would be willing to place a large bet on the fact that it is you who have a preconceived idea about the bible since it is pretty safe to assume that you believed in it before you even read it. Religious indoctrination starts early.

Originally Posted by Endless

All to do with not wanting the Israelites to sin - indulging in sin is like allegiance to another master, hence the reason why God is jealous that we should do right. Perhaps in the same way that if you had children you would not want them going out to a strip club, but rather listening to you - you are jealous that they do the right thing.

Nope I've read and reread what you've said and it's still horse manure. I would not be jealous I would be angry/concerned.

Originally Posted by Endless

You are using a definition of jealousy that is not intended nor meant by the Hebrew, hence your distorted view.

Maybe so. I disagree but I wont harp on about it anymore. You seem to have conveniently left vengence out of the discussion. Your point about vengence being punishment for sin is not satisfactory.

Originally Posted by Endless

But read it for yourself Fade, if not at least so you can say that you have read it and made up your own mind on what it teaches and who it portrays God as.

I have and I have. By any definition of modern morality and ethics he is a sick mutha.
Let me ask you something. Do you have children? If you do would you sacrifice your child if you believed God wanted you to?

[Endless]

Glad you have read the Bible Fade.

I have and I have. By any definition of modern morality and ethics he is a sick mutha.
Let me ask you something. Do you have children? If you do would you sacrifice your child if you believed God wanted you to?

No i don't have children. Secondly God would never want me to sacrifice my child if i had one - just as he had no intention of letting Abraham sacrifice his child. Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead even if he did kill the son that God has promised to increase his people through. So God would never want me to do that, just like he never wanted Abraham to.
Having read the Bible you should be well familar with God's attritude to child sacrifice.

Provide the definition for vengence - God is the judge and as a judge he punishes as he deems necessary.

I would not be jealous I would be angry/concerned.

Angry and concerned - why? It is because you are 'Vigilant in guarding them: We are jealous of our good name.' Therefore you are jealous - revise your understanding of what jealous means.

I would be willing to place a large bet on the fact that it is you who have a preconceived idea about the bible since it is pretty safe to assume that you believed in it before you even read it. Religious indoctrination starts early.

No preconveived idea about the Bible. I was brought up no doubt like you with the Bible stories and being taught that God was real, being a child you believe what you are told by your parents. However i was not old enough to read the Bible, let alone understand what it meant. When i could read the Bible and not just read, but study it, i made up my own mind on it. I'm willing to bet that we were both brought up with the same preconceptions if your Dad was an Anglican minister - or in that area when you were young.

[Fade]

Originally Posted by Endless

No i don't have children. Secondly God would never want me to sacrifice my child if i had one - just as he had no intention of letting Abraham sacrifice his child. Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead even if he did kill the son that God has promised to increase his people through. So God would never want me to do that, just like he never wanted Abraham to.

If you had children you would know that being asked to murder your child is a step too far even if you come to the conclusion that it is just a test and you wont be allowed to carry it through. If you are in a position of power and you abuse your power to test those you have dominion over then you are a tyrant.

I personally cannot understand how people can read that particular bible story and come away from it thinking that God is kind and benevolent. If I had been put in that position I would have cursed God and killed myself before even contemplating putting a blade to my childs throat.

At anyrate your point about Abraham reasoning that God could raise the dead means that the whole thing is redundant anyway. It wouldn't be much of a test if there weren't consequences.

Originally Posted by Endless

Having read the Bible you should be well familar with God's attritude to child sacrifice.

Yes, he's rather fond of it. But again, it's hardly a sacrifice if you know there are no consequences. That's why I don't think Jesus counts as a sacrifice.

Originally Posted by Endless

Provide the definition for vengence - God is the judge and as a judge he punishes as he deems necessary.

You cannot be vengeful and merciful too. It is a straight forward contradiction. Oh wait it's God we're talking about, he can do whatever he feels like.

Originally Posted by Endless

Angry and concerned - why? It is because you are 'Vigilant in guarding them: We are jealous of our good name.' Therefore you are jealous - revise your understanding of what jealous means.

I know what jealous means. It just strikes me as odd that god would be "wary of being supplanted, apprehensive of losing affection or position, bitter in rivalry, inclined to suspect rivalry, vigilant in guarding something and intolerant of disloyalty" and yet allow worship of other go