God is not in the Big Bang (creation, myth, eternal)

[Nick Soapdish]

Sorry Pah, but I am feeling critical tonight. I hope you take my comments constructively.

Originally Posted by Pah

when interaction is weak the string looks like a string

Really? When has anyone "looked" at a string? Or are you saying it is structured like a string? If so, does the structure of a real string not have smaller "components", and if the M-theory string had smaller components, then they would not be fundamental?

Originally Posted by Pah

when the interaction is strong the strings "unwrap" into a membrane

Again, "unwrapping" sounds like something that a composite structure does, not a fundamental object.

Originally Posted by Pah

membranes ripple (a wave motion) and the collision of two membranes created the Big Bang producing the pecularities of our universe by the circumstances of the ripples

If the Universe did not exist yet, where did these membranes live? If they collided, what laws of physics was this collision operating under?

Originally Posted by Pah

an infinate number of collisions have taken place producing an infinite number of universes

the science fiction "parallel" universe is confirmed by the M Therory.

the laws of physics may be different in each universe.

Is this science or fancy speculation? Are the notions of fact, evidence and verification important in this theory? How could we possibly know this, much less confirm it?

Originally Posted by Pah

If the concept of God is to be kept, then it will be imposible to prove that there are not an infinite number of gods.

Is there a rule that God can only have one Universe?

[Nick Soapdish]

Originally Posted by Deut. 10:19

It's an exciting theory.

I must admit that I am surprised by this. Your receptiveness to this theory does not seem to be affected by the theory's startling lack of fact.

Perhaps it is not upon the basis of fact that you are receptive to a theory, but rather whether you perceive it to be benign with regards to its potential to inspire dangerous ideals.

[Fatmop]

Your receptiveness to this theory does not seem to be affected by the theory's startling lack of fact.

What do you mean by 'fact?' Sure, you can't see a string... but show me a quark! Failing that, try telling me quarks don't exist... and you'll get a run for your money!

[Nick Soapdish]

Originally Posted by Fatmop

What do you mean by 'fact?' Sure, you can't see a string... but show me a quark! Failing that, try telling me quarks don't exist... and you'll get a run for your money!

I mean evidence. To me string theory is an interesting mathematical exercise that simply adds dimensions until the gravitational force and the three electromagnetic forces can be reconciled. I will confess it has been a while since I have read about it and I would be interested in hearing what sort of predictive power the theory has given us.

[Fatmop]

Yeah, same here really. I don't know much about it, and I'm not claiming to put my faith in it. I was just being contrarian - maybe that's why I love arguing so much.

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by ALifetimeToWaitFor...

Without time god cannot exist without time and man the inventor of time has invented god. It is mathematically impossible to go before Planck time 10 -60 currently. Unless you are a physics genius it is impossible to say that god existed before the big bang and therefore ever existed.

Einstein once said "I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists, but not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and actions of human beings." I agree

God is not in the BANG, I agree. What CAUSED the BANG? There is no evidence, but the bang is the initial effect of all that exists. How can one have an effect without a cause?
That's where science can never go, and mankind can never prove. Its entirely mysterious.

"Lauded be Thy name, O Lord my God! I testify that Thou wast a hidden Treasure wrapped within 49 Thine immemorial Being and an impenetrable Mystery enshrined in Thine own Essence. Wishing to reveal Thyself, Thou didst call into being the Greater and the Lesser Worlds, and didst choose Man above all Thy creatures, and didst make Him a sign of both of these worlds, O Thou Who art our Lord, the Most Compassionate!"
(Baha'u'llah, Prayers and Meditations by Baha'u'llah, p. 48)

By the by why cannot God exist without time? That's not a warranted assumption.

Regards,
Scott

[michel]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

God is not in the BANG, I agree. What CAUSED the BANG? There is no evidence, but the bang is the initial effect of all that exists. How can one have an effect without a cause?
That's where science can never go, and mankind can never prove. Its entirely mysterious.

"Lauded be Thy name, O Lord my God! I testify that Thou wast a hidden Treasure wrapped within 49 Thine immemorial Being and an impenetrable Mystery enshrined in Thine own Essence. Wishing to reveal Thyself, Thou didst call into being the Greater and the Lesser Worlds, and didst choose Man above all Thy creatures, and didst make Him a sign of both of these worlds, O Thou Who art our Lord, the Most Compassionate!"
(Baha'u'llah, Prayers and Meditations by Baha'u'llah, p. 48)

By the by why cannot God exist without time? That's not a warranted assumption.

Regards,
Scott

Ah well, I knew there was a reason for me to keep a sortcut to a site; try http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program.html
(that's all about pre bang and strings, loops, and lassoos; sorry, The mere thought of the site scares me into thinking I won't understand a word - but you might)

By the by why cannot God exist without time? That's not a warranted assumption.

I agree. With my usual obnoxious lack of scientific knowledge or any form of basis from which I can construct a theory, I believe that there are dimensions about which we know nothing. Who is to say that one of them has no 'time' ?

I know time is a man made measurement (whoever said that before me), but that measurement is based on our 'day' (which is a natural phenomenon); but who is to say what happens in parallel dimensions........?

Oh, no; I've been and gone and thought too much, and now my brain hurts............

[JerryL]

God is not in the BANG, I agree. What CAUSED the BANG? There is no evidence, but the bang is the initial effect of all that exists.

Stretching the language like that has got to hurt.

What you just wrote says that all that exists caused the Big Bang.

Of course, that's not what you ment. You ment to subtly introduce the idea that the Big Bang was an effect as though it was accepted fact, so you could use this premise to prove your argument.

Of course, there may have been a cause for the Big Bang. If someone says "God", you will say "right" and if someone says anything else, you will call that something else an "effect" and repeat.

Prove that the Big Bang is an effect.

[Blood Stone]

Originally Posted by Pah

You can not create something from nothing and this has led to the religious theroy that the Big Bang must have been intitiated by God for something (the universe) was created from nothing (the state of matter/energy previous to the Big Bang) If a cause, other than God, was found that explained the Big Bang, then it would not be neccessary for God to exist.

Well, folks, we have proof in mathematical theroy that we know what was present previous to the Big Bang. Basically, it goes like this -

• the universe we live in is not seem as particles but as strings
• strings exist in 22 or 21 dimensions and fewer
• strings are the component of membranes (shortened to "branes")
• membranes encompass both 21 and 22 dimensions
• M Theroy (membranes) have an infinite number of branes comprised of an infinite number of strings
• when interaction is weak the string looks like a string
• when the interaction is strong the strings "unwrap" into a membrane
• membranes ripple (a wave motion) and the collision of two membranes created the Big Bang producing the pecularities of our universe by the circumstances of the ripples
• an infinate number of collisions have taken place producing an infinite number of universes
• each universe created by a collision is considered an alternate universe to ours
• the science fiction "parallel" universe is confirmed by the M Therory.
• the laws of physics may be different in each universe.

Not only does the creation story not reflect the actual galaxy we live in, it does not reflect the universe we live in except from an extrapolation from a melding of science and a mythological creation story. If the concept of God is to be kept, then it will be imposible to prove that there are not an infinite number of gods. Rather, it seems more and more likely that God will take a "back seat" to science and beneficial only for a mythological basis for human existence and conduct.

-pah-

Where did the strings come from? I saw a program on this but I stopped studying physics a few years ago. You can't get something from nothing the string things had to come from somewhere so no matter how complicated the theory or how good the science at the end of the day something completely timeless and everlasting would have to be the cause of the universe. As such in my opinion (though not an expert opinion) God is the only LOGICAL cause of the universe.

[michel]

Originally Posted by Blood Stone

Where did the strings come from? I saw a program on this but I stopped studying physics a few years ago. You can't get something from nothing the string things had to come from somewhere so no matter how complicated the theory or how good the science at the end of the day something completely timeless and everlasting would have to be the cause of the universe. As such in my opinion (though not an expert opinion) God is the only LOGICAL cause of the universe.

heh, Logical to someone who is prepared to believe in a deity, but to those who do not, there is no logic there, I'm afraid........it is just a case of filling in a blank with something convenient.
The trouble with wanting to get to the very beginning is that you will never know; as a Christian, I can't believe in I.D, nor Creation (as portrayed in Genesis). I have come to the conclusion that to want to know how the 'beginning started' is just an academic point, which really has little effect on us.