Do We Exist? (faith, verse)

[standing_on_one_foot]

Oh, and a quick side note: As to the whole dream thing, I must say I'm rather impressed with the dreamer. Quite a complex vision, isn't it?

[YawgmothsAvatar]

Originally Posted by Mr_Spinkles

Well, I certainly try to be. We all fall short, at times, of lofty ideals.

I completely agree, that is possible. So let us call this "reality X". Reality X might be the only, one, true reality, or it might be all a dream in another reality (reality 'Y'). It doesn't matter, though--I exist either way. Whether I exist as a dream or not is irrelevant, because dreams still exist.

Or, think of it this way: to say "I am nonexistent" is completely illogical....by definition, there is no such thing as something that is "nonexistent". Even hallucinations like dragons and unicorns exist, if only as electric signals inside one's brain.

See, I think the real problem is proving the form in which we exist (is Reality X the one true reality, or is it a dream within Reality Y?). But the fact that we are not 'nonexistent' is indisputable when one looks at the definition of 'nonexistent'.

For example, I submit that dragons are not "nonexistent". They do exist, they just exist as electric signals in peoples' brains, as chemical patterns in paintings, as a combination of letters to form a word, and as a pattern of soundwaves to pronounce 'dragon'. They do not exist as multicellular organisms which spew fire outside of the human imagination, but they do 'exist'.

Again, the question should not be if something exists...everything exists. Nothing is nonexistent. The question should be in what form does it exist.

Have you been reading Plato? He sounds a lot like that.

He thought there was a spectrum of reality. It is quite interesting, I just can't explain it very well.

Anyway, what form do you exist?

[Mr Spinkles]

Actually, I have not read any of Plato's work other than Socrates' Apology, (which was written by Plato, but supposedly spoken by Socrates) and we learned about Plato's philosophy in high school. Of course it sounds like Plato...everyone, past and present, is always stealing my ideas. Just don't be too thrown by the word "forms".

Anyway, what form do you exist?

So far, it looks like I exist in the one and only "Reality X" although I've heard of some theories about alternate realities which 'bubble' off of our reality/universe. I'll concede that Reality X could all be a dream within Reality Y...but that's just speculation. Besides, if Reality Y cannot be detected within X, it's irrelevant to us.

But I still maintain that whatever I am, I exist. Like I said to Deut, the map and the terrain may be two different things, but both exist.

So let's all agree that we exist, so we can move on and start talking about all the other stuff that depends on our existence to be relevant!

[Runt]

Do "I" exist? There are so many ways to look at this question. A Taoist answer would be that, no, "I" am an illusionary division of the Tao, and "I" am really One with the Tao and therefore do not exist as an individual. Similiarly, looking at it from a quasi-scientific point of view (I won't claim "scientific" just yet, since I'm sure some of those whose scientific understanding is superior to my high school and some college education might potentially disagree), "I" am, at my most basic level, energy that blends with the rest of the energy of the universe, and that where the energy that is "me" and the energy that is "outside of me" is an illusion created by part of that which I define as me: my mind. Yet, even if these things are true, something mistaking itself for "me" still exists...

And if we don't exist, then how exactly is it that we imagine we do? Do unicorns imagine that they exist and dream their entire lives, even though they do not exist?

This is a fun question to contemplate, but ultimately pointless. If we come to the conclusion that we don't exist, then we must come to the conclusion that ANYTHING we do is pointless. "I don't exist, so I only IMAGINE that I am eating this dinner... so why eat?". We might as well just commit suicide, because we don't really exist and therefore there is no point in continuing to believe otherwise.

A more amusing question: Does anything BUT me exist? Is the entire universe and everything in it other than me an illusion created by my mind? Do other humans really exist? Perhaps some super power created me, and only me, and put illusionary "others" in my path to provide senarios with which to prepare me for some unknown destiny. Anyone who believes this is, of course, incredibly egocentric... but it is amusing to contemplate nontheless. Besides, many religions have a similar view: Humans are God's special little creation and everything else was put here to serve some purpose for humanity (ie the big bang occured to create the universe, the universe had to exist to form stars, the star we call our sun had to exist to provide heat to our planet, our planet had to exist to nurture life, and all life on the planet--and all non-life as well, such as dirt--exist to be used by humanity, whether as food, or shelter...)

[Seyorni]

There are different levels of reality, corresponding to different levels of consciousness. There are varying levels of subjective realities and one Objective Reality.

If I dream about rabbits those rabbits are real -- subjectively -- in 2nd state consciousness.

If I experience cars, jobs, mortgages, George Bush and Conflict in Iraq this is also subjectively real. It is a 3rd state dream.

Neither George Bush nor the rabbits are objectively Real, though. They are manifestations/dreams within different levels of consciousness; they are manifestations of maya.

The only thing that really, objectively exists is a timeless, undifferentiated field of consciousness. For convenience, Hindus term this Brahma.

[angellous_evangellous]

I would simply like to inform everyone that I do not exist. You all may exist, but I do not. Isn't it ironic that we go to college and some of our philosophy professors are not even sure if we all exist. That's funny. I want cash that doesn't exist (please give me the stuff that everyone else thinks is real) and I will live it up in this fantasy world (buying "real" stuff with "hard cash"), and you all can figure out if I am in a dream world.

EDIT: For you RF folks, frubals will work just fine. If you like, I will accept credit card numbers that "real" stores accept by PM only for a "real" online shopping spree.

If you would like lessons in how to live like the world isn't real, giving up your cash is a great exercize. I, however, think that the world is real, so I would be happy to be a beneficiary to all those who would like to live in a fantacy.

[angellous_evangellous]

I am exited to see some fruballing due to post #27 on this thread. So far there have been no takers for the credit card offer. That is disappointing but understandable. Pragmatic analysis has never been popluar. Kant is a perfect example - he sees the train coming and gets off the tracks. He thinks that the train is an idea interpreted as real only by the mind, but he moves anyway. We are discussing something similar, but it is very effective. The world may be a collection of ideas, but we are living like it is real, and there are certain consequences that you will face if you give all of your money to me. I would have a wonderful time, and you would suffer (in our "reality" or communal dream, whatever you call it in your construct).

[Seyorni]

Descartes walks into a McDonalds, scans the menu, and orders a Big Mac & Fries.

"Will there be anything to drink?" asks the waitress.

Descartes looks over the menu again and replies: "I think not...."

and promptly vanishes!

[Mossburg32908]

so wait now, people think that we are just a frame of mind, and its all thoughts, all the pain, all the joy is all fake, this computer your saying is just my imagination, oh wait I cant have an imagination if I dont exist, this whole thind is pointless!