Do We Exist? (faith, verse)

[(Q)]

It's a situation where you cannot win - just like the existence of God.

Not being able to prove gods existence does not verify his existence.

And I would dare say there is far more evidence to suggest we exist than there is to the existence of gods.

Our senses are flawed. Logic? Also flawed. There are some things that we can prove logically, but everything else tells us is not true (I'm thinking of Zeno's paradox here mainly).

If our senses were so flawed, then no one would be able to agree on the length of a meter, for example. Yet we do.

BTW - Zeno's paradox is no longer a paradox, has not been for some time.

[YawgmothsAvatar]

Originally Posted by Mr_Spinkles

Ok, before I said that even if everything is a dream, we still exist. I'd like to add that if everything is a dream, it is a very unusual one...most dreams make no sense and are very inconsistent. This "dream", however, has been repeatedly shown to be consistent and logical.

At any rate, I think I see what inspired this thread...I hear the following a lot:

"We can't *know* anything, which is why I have total faith in [insert religious beleifs here]. Not only that, but scientific laws, like thermodynamics for example, can't be *known* but require faith just like [insert religious beliefs here]. Since scientific laws aren't as fuzzy as [insert religious beliefs here], why do you choose to put your faith in scientific laws? Don't you find [insert religious beliefs here] more inspiring and positive than those depressing laws of thermodynamics?"

Mr Spinkles, you say you are a skeptic. Therefore, I reccomend you look at it this way. This is how Descartes did it.

Assume nothing. Don't take anything for granted. Don't assume the world exists, your senses are accurate or even that you exist.

Now prove you exist.

Dreams tend to have their very own logic. You can/cannot do things according to the rules of that dream. Most people don't know they are in dreams when they are dreaming. It is entirely possible that all this is a very large dream, where our senses are being fooled.

The logical problem with proving that you exist, is that you have no reference point from which you can look and say 'Yeah, I do/don't exist.' There is no third person perspection from which you can view things.

[(Q)]

It is entirely possible that all this is a very large dream, where our senses are being fooled.

And what, in your opinion, exists that allows the dream to exist - there has to be some source? And how do we have the dream or interact in the dream if we don't exist?

[(Q)]

It is entirely possible that all this is a very large dream, where our senses are being fooled.

To what ends? What is the purpose of fooling our senses? Are we but the folly of a practical joke?

[Irenicas]

That certainly would explain a lot.

[YawgmothsAvatar]

Q:
An omnipotent, omnimalicious demon is fooling just me into thinking I exist.

For clarification, how are describing a person? Are you refering to the physical body or the consciousness? Do you think they are one in the same?

Conclusions can change depending on the answer.

[Mr Spinkles]

Originally Posted by YawgmothsAvatar

Mr Spinkles, you say you are a skeptic.

Well, I certainly try to be. We all fall short, at times, of lofty ideals.

Therefore, I reccomend you look at it this way. This is how Descartes did it.

Assume nothing. Don't take anything for granted. Don't assume the world exists, your senses are accurate or even that you exist.

Now prove you exist.

Dreams tend to have their very own logic. You can/cannot do things according to the rules of that dream. Most people don't know they are in dreams when they are dreaming. It is entirely possible that all this is a very large dream, where our senses are being fooled.

I completely agree, that is possible. So let us call this "reality X". Reality X might be the only, one, true reality, or it might be all a dream in another reality (reality 'Y'). It doesn't matter, though--I exist either way. Whether I exist as a dream or not is irrelevant, because dreams still exist.

Or, think of it this way: to say "I am nonexistent" is completely illogical....by definition, there is no such thing as something that is "nonexistent". Even hallucinations like dragons and unicorns exist, if only as electric signals inside one's brain.

The logical problem with proving that you exist, is that you have no reference point from which you can look and say 'Yeah, I do/don't exist.' There is no third person perspection from which you can view things.

See, I think the real problem is proving the form in which we exist (is Reality X the one true reality, or is it a dream within Reality Y?). But the fact that we are not 'nonexistent' is indisputable when one looks at the definition of 'nonexistent'.

For example, I submit that dragons are not "nonexistent". They do exist, they just exist as electric signals in peoples' brains, as chemical patterns in paintings, as a combination of letters to form a word, and as a pattern of soundwaves to pronounce 'dragon'. They do not exist as multicellular organisms which spew fire outside of the human imagination, but they do 'exist'.

Again, the question should not be if something exists...everything exists. Nothing is nonexistent. The question should be in what form does it exist.

[Jayhawker Soule]

Originally Posted by Mr_Spinkles

For example, I submit that dragons are not "nonexistent". They do exist, they just exist as electric signals in peoples' brains, as chemical patterns in paintings, as a combination of letters to form a word, and as a pattern of soundwaves to pronounce 'dragon'.

No, the concept of "dragons" exist, as do vocal and pictoral references to that concept. To employ a well-worn phrase, the map is not the territory, and dragons do not exist.

[Mr Spinkles]

Deut--The map may not be the territory, but both exist. Saying that anything is nonexistent defies the definition.

[standing_on_one_foot]

For all practical extents and purposes, yes, we exist. Beyond that...well, maybe we do and maybe we don't. It all depends on how you define exist. From my point of view, yeah, we do. If this is all a dream, so be it, I have my dream definition of existance and it seems to work. Is there any other definition you can give? I mean, beyond what we can experience or think up, can we define anything? Is there any "outside" definition?

I don't think I'm making much sense here, forgive me, it's a little difficult to put into words. If anything up there needs clarifying, let me know.