Does science prove the existence of god? (Jesus, ritual, beliefs)

[Orthodox]

Duet

Did you mean that was your last response to me? I hope not, I thought we had a good debate going.

orthodox

[true blood]

Originally Posted by linwood

trueblood,
Say that out loud to yourself 5 times and let it really sink in.
How does it sound?
I mean..logically.

This world contains many different realities. You know that. And if anyone on these forums actually viewed the true reality they would probably go mad or at least everyone would deem them as insane. But in our world we form our own realities and these realities take a type of form when their is agreement. My reality could be wrong but my theory does sink in...for me.

[Jayhawker Soule]

Originally Posted by Orthodox

Did you mean that was your last response to me? I hope not, I thought we had a good debate going.

Of course not. I respect and appreciate your input. Thanks.

[Orthodox]

Duet,

You said,

I choose to believe only in those things which are evidenced.

What did you find wrong with the evidence I presented earlier on thids thread. Was there a problem with it?

I likewise respect and appreciate your thoughs on this matter.

orthodox

[Mr Spinkles]

Orthodox-- Hello again, friend! It's good to hear from you. How did your exams go? Please excuse the lateness of my reply. I've been away from the forums.

Originally Posted by Orthodox

The universe has not always existed - from a scientific perspective anyway.

My understanding is that because time is finite, and not an infinite linear continuum stretching back forever, we cannot speak of the nothingness "before" the BB. Any theoretical nothingness that existed "before" the BB would have existed for exactly zero seconds, which is equivalent to not existing. I could accurately say that Santa existed for zero seconds after all.

Originally Posted by Orthodox

2) You said, "The universe is not "perfect" in any respect--it is what it is, and doesn't need our a priori notions of what constitutes "perfection" to exist the way it does".

I agree, the universe is not perfect, but that does not mean it never was. By the way, are you acknowledging that human being's have an a priori notion of perfection?

No.

Originally Posted by Orthodox

If you say the universe is not perfect what standard are you judging it by?

Actually, I was using ArabianHorse's standard. He said that the universe is perfect because of its order, harmony, etc....but I argued that if those are the requirements for perfection, the universe is not perfect becuase it is not entirely orderly and harmonious.

If you have some idea of a perfection you have never seen and deny exists, where does this concept of perfection come from.

I'll start another thread on this...this is off topic.

Originally Posted by Orthodox

By the way, I read your Journal thing. I was really interesting and well written. You said that you did some Astronomy and Theology. Is that at College? What are you studying, if you don't mind me asking?

I took theology for three years at my Catholic high school. One year covered the New Testament, one covered Church history, and one covered Church social teaching and modern issues. I am currently taking a class on astronomy and space physics, and my major is physics. You're in college as well, as I recall--what are you studying?

[Orthodox]

Mr Spinkles!

Great to have you on the thread mate. No worries about your late reply – occasionally I also respond late. My exams went well, thanks for asking.

Ok,

My understanding is that because time is finite, and not an infinite linear continuum stretching back forever, we cannot speak of the nothingness "before" the BB. Any theoretical nothingness that existed "before" the BB would have existed for exactly zero seconds, which is equivalent to not existing. I could accurately say that Santa existed for zero seconds after all.

That’s correct. The ineluctable fact is that what existed before (I can’t really avoid using that word) the BB was not even an empty vaccum, it was less than that, it was truly no thing. When we describe this nothingness 'before' to the Big Bang we have to place it outside a timeline that started at the Big Bang. I suppose it is useful to our time orientated minds to say that 'nothing' was 'before' the BB. As with what you said before the BB there was no time, there also wasn't space or matter.

The problem for atheists is that in the absence of time there is no cause-effect process – any cause must necessarily exist prior (in a strictly temporal sense) to its’ effect – thus eliminating a natural cause of the universe. Something that was not contained in the Big Bang Singularity Point (BBSP) must have ignited the universe, an unbiased analysis of the facts suggests that this is commonsense. A number of people have proposed alternative non-supernatural causes for the universe, I will list a couple of them.

1. Paul Davies suggested that the universe could have originated through Quantum Tunnelling (The process by which virtual particles suddenly appear at a random point in space and split into their particle anti-particle parts for a moment before they rejoin to form a virtual particle and disappear to another part of the universe). This, however, cannot work because it presupposes a temporal dimension by which quantum space-time fluctuations can occur. Davies has since admitted (about the universe) that there is "something going on behind it all".
2. Peter Atkins in his book The Creation Revisited postulated that before the BB was a dust of swirling mathematical points which combined and re-combined until through chance they created space-time. The problems being of course that the swirling mathematical points presuppose both the time and space they are supposed to have generated. These mathematical points also comprise of something and do not find a home in the scientifically concluded fact that there was ‘nothingness’ before the BB.

The problem faced by atheists (and indeed anyone who is not a theist) is so profound that many prominent astronomers and astrophysicists have been fairly blunt in their association of the Big Bang with the Christian idea of Creation Ex Nihilo.

Astronomer George Smoot, project lead of NASA’s COBE (Cosmic Background Explorer) satellite, said, "There is no doubt that a parallel exists between the Big Bang and the Christian notion of creation from nothing". Smoot called the "ripples" in the Big Bang Background Radiation Echo which the COBE discovered "the fingerprints of the maker", and "machining marks from the creation of the universe".

What is your personal take on the question of what started the Big Bang?

No.

Ok then. Do you believe it unjust to kill black people or homosexual people? If so why? On the same note, do you believe that you have a ‘right’ to believe what you want?

I'll start another thread on this...this is off topic.

Keep it here if you want, I think this is has import to this particular thread.

I am currently taking a class on astronomy and space physics, and my major is physics. You're in college as well, as I recall--what are you studying?

I just recently finished up some work I was doing in a philosophy course. I am now going to start a degree in mathematics and physics. I have always enjoyed physics and have worked through a number of university level texts books on the subject. I particularly enjoy Cosmology. What area are you trying to get into career wise? What branch of Physics are you most interested in?

orthodox

[The Voice of Reason]

Originally Posted by true blood

The reality is God exists. If we asked every single human on this planet whether they believed there is a God or not, the majority would answer yes. Therefore, via majority agreement, we have a reality. So even through scientific methods, God is proven.

Woof! I don't know what I was thinking when I went to college!

This is a classic (truly a "textbook") example of the logical fallacy of Appeal to Authority - "Eat at Joe's Diner! Five thousand flies can't be wrong!!"

True Blood - this is the best you have for a proof of the existence of God? Hell, I'm an Agnostic, and I can do better than this.

This may be one of the worst attempts I've seen on this site to make, or prove, a point.

TVOR

[Jayhawker Soule]

It's a bit like grandma's Christmas package ...

You open it. You do not wish to hurt anyone's feelings, but you stare at the offering with increasing contempt. Soon you're telling it what you think of it and then stop, realizing that you're polemicizing with a fruitcake.

[Scott1]

Oh for cripes sake Deut!

Just once I would like to read one of your posts without having to look up a word in the dictionary!

I can't add anything usefull, so I'll just add: Mmmmmm, fruitcake.

Thanks for helping me grow my vocabulary!

Peace,
Scott