Free Will and Physics (experience, bible, verse, Zen, witchcraft)

[Mr Spinkles]

This is driving me nuts. You aren't a transcendentalist or subscribe to any Eastern philosophy by any chance, do you?

[(Q)]

A grasshopper walks into a bar and asks for a drink. The bar tender turns to the grasshopper and says "Hey, you know we have a drink named after you?"

The grasshopper responds "Why in hell do you have a drink named Bob?"

[Mr Spinkles]

LOL, um, so why did you call me grasshopper? I don't see the connection. Like I said earlier, someone else used to call me grasshopper, and I always wondered why.

"True, but in this case it is unknowble because the positions are random."

Ok, so the positions of the electrons are unknowable--what I still don't understand is how do you take the next step, and conclude that the positions are definitely random (not just unknowable)? If it requires calculus maybe I should just take your word for it...lol, I did poorly on the AP exam.

Like with Schrodinger's Cat...it's either dead or alive. We don't know whether it's dead or alive, but it's still not random. In fact, I read in Skeptic magazine that some physicists think that it's not all random, but there are hidden causes.

I'm waiting for you to say "It's random--I could explain it to you, but you wouldn't understand anyway". If that's the case, I'll take your word for it.

[Mr Spinkles]

Hmmm...I found this:

Remember, grasshopper, your most dangerous enemy is yourself. The issue is not so much what you COULD do with any of these opportunities, the issue is what WILL you do.
-- Ernie Prabhakar

I think I figured it out...one of my friends told me that 'grasshopper' is what they call students in kung fu movies. I knew it had something to do with my age/naivite.

[(Q)]

Ok, so the positions of the electrons are unknowable--what I still don't understand is how do you take the next step, and conclude that the positions are definitely random (not just unknowable)?

Maybe this will help:

http://physics.bu.edu/py106/notes/PeriodicTable.html

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/pauli.html

[Zero Faith]

Quantum events are literally and absolutely random, by definition and to a mathematical certainty. Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle is inviolate, and its application absolutely necessitates this randomness. If quantum events were patterned, the uncertainty principle would break down and undermine the entire discipline.

If that happens, I will have wasted four years of University study, and that would make me sad. Please don't destroy quantum physics -- I don't want to be homeless.

[Zero Faith]

Mr. Sprinkles:

The many worlds theory of quantum physics might explain what those physicists were saying could be 'hidden causes'; namely, the infinite possible outcomes of a quantum event spawn infinite dimensions, and those dimensions interact with each other to influence the event in our dimension. It's how "Single Photon Intereference" is sometimes explained (look it up on the web -- it's probably one of the most fascinating elements of basic quantum physics).

But this is largely overshadowed by the more popular Copenhagen interpretation, which is exactly what I've already stated -- that quantum events are necessarily random.

As for the cat, the Copenhagen interpretation suggests that, until observed, the cat is neither alive nor dead. It exists in some quantum state that is both alive and dead, as well as neither alive nor dead, all at the same time. It's only when the box is opened and the cat observed that the wave function collapses and one of the two alternatives is purely randomly determined. At that moment, the cat will become alive or dead. If it's dead, it will have been dead for some time (it's not like the cat dies as soon as the box is opened).

So, the cat goes into the box and you have a quantum mechanical process attached to a cyanide capsule, also in the box. You leave it there for five minutes, during which time the cat is both and neither alive n/or dead. Let's say you open the box, the wave function collapses, and you're staring at the body of a cat that has been dead for three minutes. That's not to say that the cat died three minutes ago -- three minutes ago, it was both and neither alive n/or dead, as it was two minutes or four minutes ago. At the time the box is opened, the wave function collapsed and randomly 'chose' the time of three minutes that the cat has been dead.

As you can see, quantum physics is crazy-weird. :P

[Mr Spinkles]

Zero Faith-- Thank you very much for the excellent posts! Unlike the websites (Q) provided, they were very informative and clearly addressed my specific questions. Have a smiley:

[EventHorizon997]

I agree with Mr_Sprinkles. Because on the fundamental level quantum events are inherently random there can be no prediction of future events; even if you know everything there is to know about the state of everything in the universe at a single instant in time there is no certainty for the future. In my opinion this has some pretty big implications....