Free Will and Physics (experience, bible, verse, Zen, witchcraft)

[(Q)]

At any rate, do we agree that free will is an illusion?

Just a wee bit more clarity - we have free will, we are free to make any choice we wish regardless of the outcome. But what is important to remember is that the outcome of our choice is random, thus giving the illusion that free will is... an illusion.

Are quantum events literally random

In that we cannot predict the outcome, yes.

or is it just that they will always appear random to us since our observation influences them

Observation of the event will definitely influence the event in that we may be able to know a particular property (like spin) but cannot know another (like charge), and vice-versa.

I read about Schrodinger's Cat analogy, but I am having a hard time understanding it.

It's a very good gedanken experiment. Keep thinking about it and apply what you have learned, grasshopper.

[Mr Spinkles]

I disagree, I don't see how we can possibly have 'free will' when there is no 'us' in the first place....after all, which brain cell is the one with free will? We act on what we want, but we can't decide what it is that we want in the first place.

I have been called "grasshopper" before...why do you call me that?

[YawgmothsAvatar]

:looks up:

Wha?

:Googles "Schrodinger's Cat":

Oh... right...

This is what I think the application is:

The cat is either strictly alive or strictly dead. Just because we don't know doesn't make it both. But, on the quantum level, it is true, because of the Double Slit Experiment (Ha! Take that!). So, where can we draw the line of when superposition stops?

[(Q)]

why do you call me that?

Simple, because you have been called "grasshopper" before

[Mr Spinkles]

What on earth does that mean? Are you alluding to a poem or a story? I have a feeling it has someting to do with my young age, but I won't be offended....you've sparked my curiosity here.

(Q) said: "In that we cannot predict the outcome [of quantum events--spinkles], yes."

But just because we can't predict the outcome doesn't mean it's random, it could mean that there are causes but those causes are (forever?) unknowable to us. Am I wrong?

One more thing: when you say free will being an illusion is an illusion, are you saying we have free will? How do you even define free will?

[(Q)]

But just because we can't predict the outcome doesn't mean it's random, it could mean that there are causes but those causes are (forever?) unknowable to us

Not really. In the ground state of a hydrogen atom for example, there is no change occuring because the electrons are at their lowest energy levels, so no energy is radiating - the electrons take on the shape of a 'smeared' cloud, hence their positions are unknowable (random). If a change (cause) occurs it can be detected, usually when the electrons energy levels increase and they begin to radiate energy to get back to a ground state.

How do you even define free will?

Definitions like 'free will' are relative (not absolute) to the individual just like their definitions of gods. So, you have free will only in the context of your own definition.

[Mr Spinkles]

"hence their positions are unknowable (random)"

But just because something is unknowable to us doesn't mean it is random. It just means it is unknowable.

Also, I would be very interested to know why you called me grasshopper.

[(Q)]

True, but in this case it is unknowble because the positions are random.

[Mr Spinkles]

Ah. And what about the reason you called me grasshopper? Is that unknowable, too?

[(Q)]

It is knowable, grasshopper.