Free Will and Physics (experience, bible, verse, Zen, witchcraft)

[Mr Spinkles]

You mean, if anything, it supports his argument that we do not have free will? I agree.

[YawgmothsAvatar]

Originally Posted by Mr_Spinkles

In that case, YawgmothsAvatar must be wrong about everything being predestined...there can be no predetermined outcome if quantum events are random. Still, this doesn't go against his argument on free will.

So, in this case, everything we do is random, and not caused by our choice. We are, then, dictated purely by randomness.

[Ceridwen018]

Is it possible for quantum events to be random, but for atoms and matter to be ordered? This is just an idea of course, but would it be possible for a random quantum event to initiate something which acted in ordered patterns? In that case, everything we do wouldn't be dictated by randomness.

[Mr Spinkles]

I think, Ceridwen, that the macro world we experience is so far removed and beyond the world of quantum events, that it is ordered and patterned the way we experience it....still, at the tiniest levels, the universe is random. So even though everyone behaves according to ordered patterns, you could never predict precisely where every atom would be in the brain....I guess.

[Ceridwen018]

That makes some sense. Then again, if we can't accurately predict it, how can we be sure it's patterned?......Well, I guess we may never be able to predict things on a very detailed level, but by analyzing less detailed things from a broader viewpoint, we can predict more obvious patterns...and big patterns can only come from little patterns so we could assume correctly that the atoms in our brains, etc. are patterned, even though we can't directly predict them.

[(Q)]

everything we do is random, and not caused by our choice.

No, we make the choice and do everything in our power to control the outcome of that choice, yet the result will be random.

[(Q)]

Then again, if we can't accurately predict it, how can we be sure it's patterned?....

Hence, we enter the world of quantum probability theory. How is your calculus?

[YawgmothsAvatar]

Originally Posted by (Q)

everything we do is random, and not caused by our choice.

No, we make the choice and do everything in our power to control the outcome of that choice, yet the result will be random.

I am afraid I don't quite follow you...

This is what I was thinking:

Think of the original situation I proposed, with the energy of the atoms and such. That was predestination. We could not truely control out actions.

Now add a random variable to that equation. I would think that since the rest of the equation is still the same, the only thing controlling our actions was randomness.

[(Q)]

Think of the original situation I proposed, with the energy of the atoms and such.

There is a clear distinction between the types of energies of an atom. For example, the kinetic energy from an atom oscillating about its position is considered disordered energy and is completely random while the kinetic energy of the same atoms' velocity moving through space is considered ordered energy, the energy of work.

[Mr Spinkles]

At any rate, do we agree that free will is an illusion?

I have a question about quantum physics for you (Q) that relates to predestination: Are quantum events literally random, or is it just that they will always appear random to us since our observation influences them, and therefore we will never know so we call it 'random'?

I read about Schrodinger's Cat analogy, but I am having a hard time understanding it.