Has 'The Doc' Got A Point? (Jesus, ritual, reject, Creator)

[Jaiket]

In another thread NetDoc said:

True belief in a creator is ANYTHING but lazy. Indicating such is truly condescending for those of us who expend a TON of energy in the following of our faith. Creationists are constanly villified by many of those who purport to be a part of the current intelligencia. We are often depicted as lazy, stupid, insecure, full of nonsense, intellectually dishonest, etc. etc.

Rather than seeing the bias continue, I thought I would attempt to set the record straight, and perhaps shed some light on just how this intellectual bigotry is seen by those of us on the receiving end.

Although I feel this was a complete misunderstanding of my own post, I am curious to hear if others share these feelings.

Do you spend large amounts of energy following your faith?

Do you feel intellectual bigotry is rife amongst the current intelligencia? (Whatever the hell that is).

Does this bigotry pervade even RF?

My own conviction is that God is an extremely sluggish explanation for...anything.

[painted wolf]

God is only a sluggish expanation if you let it rest at that.
If you never bother to look into things and just slap the 'god did it' label on everything that is lazy.
You can have faith in 'god' and be intellectually curious IMHO.

My faith demands lots of energy on my part as it is part of the whole of my life. I expend a lot of energy in living life, so naturally a lot in my faith.

As for bigotry... perhaps some small bias on the part of some. Those who assume that people of faith are using god as an excuse not to think. (not that some don't but certenly not all)

wa:do

[lilithu]

Why is this thread in science vs religion debate? I will answer your questions, but I have no intention of getting into a debate over my own views and observations.

Originally Posted by truthseekingsoul

Do you spend large amounts of energy following your faith?

YES!! To truely believe in God is to live a godly life. (Which is not to say that people who don't believe live "ungodly" lives.) Afterall,if you don't truly live your beliefs, how does anyone (including yourself) know that the truly believe them?

God for me is not some father-figure up in the sky who's going to give me things when I ask, and "save" me just because I happen to believe some thing. As a UU, I believe that there is a divine spark in each of us, that can either be nurtured to grow or diminished with neglect. "Judgement" is not just on the "last" day, it's everyday. Everyday I hold myself accountable to God and to myself as to whether I nurtured my own spark of divinity and those of others. (And I have to say I usually fall short.) Whether it's meditation/reflection for myself or volunteering in the community or just plain being nice to someone else, that's all rooted in my faith (for me).

Originally Posted by truthseekingsoul

Do you feel intellectual bigotry is rife amongst the current intelligencia? (Whatever the hell that is).

Rife? I don't know. Is there a significant amount of it? Yes. And I'm saying that as a member of the "current intelligentsia" (by which I assume NetDoc means over-educated academicians and their sympathizers). There is a tendency to assume that if someone believes in God it's because we don't know any better. Because we're uneducated. Or because we haven't questioned what we were taught. Or because we can't deal with uncertainty. Or because we want the easy way out.

Originally Posted by truthseekingsoul

Does this bigotry pervade even RF?

Have I seen it? Yes. Does it pervade? No. In general, I find the members of RF to be refreshingly openminded. And of those who are less so, there seem to be equal numbers all around.

Originally Posted by truthseekingsoul

My own conviction is that God is an extremely sluggish explanation for...anything.

It can be. That doesn't mean that it is for everyone. Nor does it mean that those who reject the concept of God are necessarily using more brain cells. It really doesn't take that much more thought to reject something than to accept it. It's what comes after that that's important.

But God for me is not an "explanation." The idea that God created the universe is rather incidental to my daily life. Much more important is God as the ideal towards which I strive, a relationship for which I work to cultivate. For me, to say that "I believe in God" isn't just saying that I believe that God exists, the way that a toaster exists. Who cares? When I say "I believe in God" I mean it like I believe in truth, love, beauty, justice... I mean it like when I say to someone I love "I believe in you."

[Jayhawker Soule]

Originally Posted by truthseekingsoul

My own conviction is that God is an extremely sluggish explanation for...anything.

"Sluggish" is, in my opinion, too polite a term, but clearly NetDoc is correct when asserting that "true belief in a creator is ANYTHING but lazy" - although reference to 'true belief' invites the 'no true Scottsman' fallacy. The fact remains that "true belief in a creator" can easily mandate the most strenuous mental gymnastics to deal with the Problem of Evil. Blaming the victim while defending a malicious, petty, and vindictive Diety as omniscient and omnibenevolent, all while trying to appear 'Christian' and loving, is hardly a task for the lazy.

[michel]

Originally Posted by truthseekingsoul

In another thread NetDoc said:

True belief in a creator is ANYTHING but lazy. Indicating such is truly condescending for those of us who expend a TON of energy in the following of our faith. Creationists are constanly villified by many of those who purport to be a part of the current intelligencia. We are often depicted as lazy, stupid, insecure, full of nonsense, intellectually dishonest, etc. etc.

Rather than seeing the bias continue, I thought I would attempt to set the record straight, and perhaps shed some light on just how this intellectual bigotry is seen by those of us on the receiving end.

Although I feel this was a complete misunderstanding of my own post, I am curious to hear if others share these feelings.

Do you spend large amounts of energy following your faith?

Do you feel intellectual bigotry is rife amongst the current intelligencia? (Whatever the hell that is).

Does this bigotry pervade even RF?

My own conviction is that God is an extremely sluggish explanation for...anything.

I'm (I was going to say 'afraid' because I don't particularly enjoy contradicting people - one of my many faults) 'with' Net Doc on this one. Yes, I do spend large amounts of energy following my faith.
Yes, I do feel that intellectual bigotry is rife amongst the current intelligencia.
Intelligencia:intellectuals who form an artistic, social, or political vanguard or elite
Does this bigotry pervade even RF? - unfortunately, I have to admit that there appear to be one or two members who behave in that manner.

[Melody]

Originally Posted by truthseekingsoul

Do you spend large amounts of energy following your faith?

Yes. How can you possibly understand your faith and explain it to others if you don't take the time to study it and question why you belief what you do. Every day someone on RF will make a comment that requires me to go do some research on my own.

Originally Posted by truthseekingsoul

Do you feel intellectual bigotry is rife amongst the current intelligencia?

Yes.

Originally Posted by truthseekingsoul

Does this bigotry pervade even RF?

There are a couple people who fall into the category of bigot, but "pervade"? No. On the whole, most people in this forum seem to respect other's beliefs...even when they disagree with it.

[roli]

[quote=lilithu]
YES!! To truely believe in God is to live a godly life. (Which is not to say that people who don't believe live "ungodly" lives.) Afterall,if you don't truly live your beliefs, how does anyone (including yourself) know that the truly believe them?
God for me is not some father-figure up in the sky who's going to give me things when I ask, and "save" me just because I happen to believe some thing. As a UU, I believe that there is a divine spark in each of us, that can either be nurtured to grow or diminished with neglect. "Judgement" is not just on the "last" day, it's everyday.
Everyday I hold myself accountable to God and to myself as to whether I nurtured my own spark of divinity and those of others. (And I have to say I usually fall short.) Whether it's meditation/reflection for myself or volunteering in the community or just plain being nice to someone else, that's all rooted in my faith (for me).

Quote Roli I must comment on this first statement in which you say," to believe in God is to live a Godly life", that is a true statement, if you actually know how ( creation)God 's nature,character, personality,principals and standards are and how to fully carry them out.Otherwise, we become decieved into thinking we are Godly when in actuality it is more in our mind then it is our obedience and heart leading to devotion and adherence.
You don't become Godly towards God (creation,),by simply claiming to be Godly,or with good intent.
The whole christian tenet is that if you want to be Godly ,obviously referring to following after Him, you must believe,recieve,see Christ,come to Christ ,follow Christ,obey Christ and adhere to His principals and teachings because God and Christ claim that only thru the son can we be like God and come to the father.
You said QUOTE=lilithu]Which is not to say that people who don't believe live "ungodly" lives.) ,what is up with that, what God are you referring to,because you sure have the whole God ,Godly, affiliation twisted. Your own version perhaps,or copied.
How can you not believe (trust ,rely)in God and live a Godly life?.
Do you see that the 2 just don't go together.
Maybe your creating your own theology by trying to be politically correct,take a stand for God and represent Him accurately or keep him out of you philosophy and vocabulary.
These misconceptions are the very type that pervert the gospel and doctrines of God making the very acts ungodly in themself,how ironic!!!!

Originally Posted by lilithu

God for me is not some father-figure up in the sky who's going to give me things when I ask, and "save" me just because I happen to believe some thing

Quote Roli
I'm am terribly sorry to make this shocking revealtion to you but God is exactly what you say, he is'nt,that is scriptural, over and over again,even God goes as far to call himself ABBA,father several times ,in Galations.Romans, but hey! what does that mean to you
God says my sheep hear my voice and follow me, what flock are you with is the question.
v6 You will know them by their fruits. by what they produce, what they say or do.
Matt 7 7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!

13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 *Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
26 "But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."

Quote Roli
H e may not be a Father to you, but He is a Father to those who make HiM their Father,because, you don't know Him, His word, His character,nature or even His Son Jesus. but yet you claim to be Godly. How is that possible,can you explain?
Do you pick and choose tenets of other religions according to your lifestyle and form and fashion them into a convincing theology. To God that is blasphemy.
You don't believe because you have not trusted with your heart, only attempted to understand with your mind.
John 10:1 A thief and robber come in another way then that of the gate,(which is Jesus)
To be Godly can only mean 1 thing , examplify God 100%, follow His way, not our way,not adding this ,removing that, replacing the Holy scriptures with some other doctrine,or having certain mindsets that are totally contray to His word.
Jesus is that example to follow ,but herein is the worlds problem,they scratch their head an say, that can't be the only way and for various reasons.
Can you still maintain a belief in God,yes!, even become super spiritual, even profess to be holy , but if not according to God's way, what do we have.
Believing in God does not make you Holy ,Godly, christian, or a good person.

QUOTE=lilithu]

But God for me is not an "explanation." The idea that God created the universe is rather incidental to my daily life. Much more important is God as the ideal towards which I strive, a relationship for which I work to cultivate. For me, to say that "I believe in God" isn't just saying that I believe that God exists, the way that a toaster exists. Who cares? When I say "I believe in God" I mean it like I believe in truth, love, beauty, justice... I mean it like when I say to someone I love "I believe in you."

Quote Roli
I understand how it can be incidental,until you have a revealtion of Him it will only seem like just another expression of a tenet or belief,if that really does anything for you
The truth of God is found in His word and you seem to be so far removed from His truth by just a few statements i have seen here, God is not just about love,joy, peace, goodness, unity, there is a side to God that is totally contray to popular belief ,but is written through out His word that is HE is Holy, righteous, Just ,in the sense where he will punish sin where it is found, because sin will not be present where God dwells, he is sovereign,etc. etc.