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  #341  
Old 12-02-2011, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by atanu View Post
Hello Looncall

I am not out to convince you (which i cannot). But what you call ancient error, I call ancient wisdom.

We are so accustomed with the presumption that this body is me that we never ask a simple question as to why then a body is not able to say "I wish to live".

There is no way for one who believes that the selfhood with its power of awareness arose from inert materials by deterministic laws to overcome life's vicissitudes. Every thing that happens is just destined. Whereas we know that we can control our anger, our sadness and our blood pressure.

So, it is not an anceint error that i am propagating. I am just reminding that there is an alternative thought that is helpful and transformative -- just a reminder in the face of blinding materialism.

Sorry for the long post.
Thank you for your response. Long posts are fine with me.

I do not agree that a material body cannot make decisions. You are short-changing the capabilities of complexly organized structures, which our brains surely are. You might like to look into topics such as neural networks and fuzzy logic.

I must say I do not admire the religious distain for the material world (which is just a con job meant to empower priests), nor do I admire these contorted efforts to stuff ghosts into places where they are not needed.

I do not care how helpful or transformative any notion is if it is also untrue.
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  #342  
Old 12-02-2011, 11:52 AM
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That highlights the problem I sometimes have with your ideas. When you experience something, you do conceptualize it. The mind receives sensations, and it imposes interpretations on what those sensations represent.
Try to explain wetness, or sight, or hearing or smell to yourself without throwing up an example of any of them.

The mind tries to conceptualize everything, that's its job. It cannot conceptualize an experience. It tries, but it fails. As I said before, we cannot explain our experiences adequately without the other person having experienced the same thing. They are not logical conclusions that we arrive at. That is my point.
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  #343  
Old 12-03-2011, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by strikeviperMKII View Post
Try to explain wetness, or sight, or hearing or smell to yourself without throwing up an example of any of them.
We can explain how those things occur which is beyond any subjective experience.
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The mind tries to conceptualize everything, that's its job. It cannot conceptualize an experience. It tries, but it fails. As I said before, we cannot explain our experiences adequately without the other person having experienced the same thing. They are not logical conclusions that we arrive at. That is my point.
There are certain things that occur to be able to experience anything. Our subjective experience doesn't take away from the fact that the same thing occurs in every human being. In that way experience is explained outside of personal interpretation.
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  #344  
Old 12-03-2011, 09:13 PM
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We can explain how those things occur which is beyond any subjective experience.
Didn't ask how they occur, but nice try.

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There are certain things that occur to be able to experience anything. Our subjective experience doesn't take away from the fact that the same thing occurs in every human being. In that way experience is explained outside of personal interpretation.
Truth, but it does not mean everything can be logically broken down. Again, how we experience something (touch, taste, sight, smell, hearing, thought) is not the issue here. It is what we experience.
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  #345  
Old 12-07-2011, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Copernicus View Post
Most religions depend on the belief that mental activity can occur independently of brains. What one thinks of as the "soul" or "spirit" is a thinking being that can operate independently of a body. Nevertheless, the evidence continues to mount that there is absolutely no mental activity that occurs independently of brain activity. It does not contradict the idea of dualism to say that minds are dependent on brains for their existence, but it does contradict the idea that a mind can survive brain-death.

In the last few decades, scientists have been able to explore the tight connection between thought and brain activity through the use of magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) technology. MRI merely shows where blood concentrates in the brain when mental activity is taking place, and scientists can actually take videos of dynamic activity in the brain during specifically targeted thinking patterns. Scientists have now, for the first time, correlated dreams with volitional behavior. While this kind of experimental evidence does not prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that mental activity depends on brain activity, it does seem to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.
While this seems like a reasonable conclusion, you then turn around and attack Madhuri in an effort to cover the span from "reasonable" to "shadow" all by yourself. I call that dogmatic atheism.

For instance, Immanuel Kant. In reading his words, his mind is simulated in my mind. This is basic science. Furthermore, it cannot be shown that we are not more than simulation to each other. If your point is to show "belief in afterlife is taking your eye off the ball," that I can agree with.
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  #346  
Old 12-07-2011, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by theirreverentconcubine View Post
For instance, Immanuel Kant. In reading his words, his mind is simulated in my mind. This is basic science. Furthermore, it cannot be shown that we are not more than simulation to each other.
Those all count as a "brain" for the purposes of this discussion.
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  #347  
Old 12-07-2011, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by PolyHedral View Post
Those all count as a "brain" for the purposes of this discussion.
That my brain is responsible for Kant's immortality? Bad brain, bad!
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  #348  
Old 12-07-2011, 07:52 PM
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It's responsible for building some crude, vastly limited construction of Kant. You can't possibly have enough information to construct him as he was originally.
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  #349  
Old 12-07-2011, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by PolyHedral View Post
It's responsible for building some crude, vastly limited construction of Kant. You can't possibly have enough information to construct him as he was originally.
Could not construct you as you are even if we were married for thirty years.

What is your point, Scientist?
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  #350  
Old 12-08-2011, 04:43 AM
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Calling the body "me" is nonsensical, and nobody here has done that. They've called the mind "me."
Oh. Same.

Mind is also not ME. Anything observed or experienced is not Me. The experiencer or observer is Me.
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