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  #1  
Old 03-02-2005, 11:17 AM
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Default The differences between Luciferism and Satanism

Quote:
Originally Posted by www.religioustolerance.org
There are probably dozens of different religious belief systems and practices that have been called "Satanism." Depending upon the precise meaning given to the word, the total number of Satanists in the world can be anything from a few thousand to four billion individuals. Dialog on the topic is almost impossible because there is such variability in the meaning of "Satanism" and "Satanist."
When trying to understand exactly why there is so much disagreement and misunderstanding over this, please keep the above quotation in mind. The word Satanism has been adopted and applied to many different belief systems. These belief systems are almost completely unrelated to each other in all but name and so it is often a very confusing topic to debate on because when you are arguing from one Satanist belief system, another person is arguing from another.

There are, however, 2 main belief systems which have been pushed under the umbrella term of Satanism. Whilst I may believe that they both deserve to call themselves whatever they may wish, this is obviously totally impractical in an environment such as this since a differentiation between them needs to be made so that debate and discussion can happen in a more constructive manner. Therefore, for this purpose, I will refer to them as Luciferism and Satanism.

Now I am not a member of either of these 2 religions but hopefully I can lay down a few of the important differences between them so that there is no more confusion.

Luciferism
This name is not one I have ever seen used outside of this forum. I'm shaky on using it for reasons that will become clear.

For starters it is not a religion. It is a umbrella term for many different belief systems (such as Paganism for example but much smaller).

It is completely decentralized and has no central or core beliefs to speak of except that they all believe in and worship the antagonist in any given religion. Now for Christianity, this would be Lucifer. However, other forms of this religion exist such as Setianism, whose followers believe in and follow the Egyptian god Set. It is for this reason that I don't like bracketing all of these religions under "Luciferism" because it implies they all have a link with Christianity which is not neccessarily true.

Now the Temple of Set is the only organization I know of which demonstrates a form of this way of thinking on a large scale but keep in mind that any beliefs which is followed in this religion, other than the one mentioned above, are very likely to not be found in any other religion which is also under this term.

Satanism
As a religion, this is much easier to define. For starters it has absolutely no link whatsoever with Christianity in any form except for the Black Mass which (correct me if I'm wrong) is not practiced anymore and this was more of a political statement than a ritual of religious belief.

The deity either takes the form of a god, a force (such as nature) or doesn't exist depending on which denomination you are dealing with. This deity is either viewed as good or neutral in terms of morality but never evil.

All satanist denominations branch from the Church of Satan (though some Satanists claim to go back and look at the original ideas which Anton Levey based his teachings upon though I do find the idea a little spurious).

Satanism focuses on the self (sometimes represented by the upsidedown pentacle with the 5th point, on the bottom, symbolizing the spirit being the basis for everything else). It has quite a few similarities with older religions that existed before Christianity, in ethical beliefs only, such as the Ancient Greek and Roman religions.

Conclusion
Not exactly comprehensive I know but hopefully this will give a good overall view of these 2 DIFFERENT trains of thought.
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  #2  
Old 03-06-2005, 09:20 AM
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It is not correct to say that Satanists are atheistic whereas Luciferians are theistic. Both "Satanism" and "Luciferianism" are general categories encompassing all of the following four subecategories:

1) Primary theistic Satanists/Luciferians - those who venerate Satan/Lucifer as one's primary deity. Often, though not always, those who identify as "Luciferians" regard Satan and Lucifer as distinct entities, whereas those who identify as "Satanists" are more likely to regard Satan/Lucifer as names of the same entity, or perhaps aspects of the same entity.

2) Secondary theistic Satanists/Luciferians - those who venerate Satan/Lucifer as part of their pantheon, but not as their primary deity. An example would be Aleister Crowley, who spoke of Satan as his "Holy Guardian Angel" and called on Satan in at least one of his published rituals (e.g. Liber Samekh), but whose primary deities were Nuit, Hadit, and Horus.

3) Atheistic symbolic Satanists/Luciferians, including LaVeyans. By the way, LaVey did not invent symbolic Satanism. An example of a pre-LaVey symbolic Satanist is Mark Twain, who wrote at least two novels (Letters from the Earth and A Pen Warmed in Hell which featured favorable portrayals of Satan. Various other well-known writers in the 1800's wrote similar works. And, in the Oxford English Dictionary, one of the definitions of "Satanism" refers to such writers.)

4) Theistic symbolic Satanists/Luciferians - similar to atheistic symbolic Satanists/Luciferians except that they do believe in other gods, even though they don't believe in Satan/Lucifer. Typically they combine LaVeyan Satanism with some form of modern Paganism. Examples include most of the leading members of John Allee's First Church of Satan.

Last edited by DianeVera; 03-06-2005 at 09:23 AM..
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Old 03-06-2005, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
It is not correct to say that Satanists are atheistic whereas Luciferians are theistic. Both "Satanism" and "Luciferianism" are general categories encompassing all of the following four subecategories:
Whilst I definitely asserted the latter, I did not mean to imply that all Satanists were atheistic as I think I stated here:

Quote:
The deity either takes the form of a god, a force (such as nature) or doesn't exist depending on which denomination you are dealing with. This deity is either viewed as good or neutral in terms of morality but never evil.
The reason why I have said that there is no such thing as atheistic Luciferism is because I do not see the difference between this and Satanism in all but name whereas there is a big difference between theistic Luciferism and Satanism.

Quote:
By the way, LaVey did not invent symbolic Satanism. An example of a pre-LaVey symbolic Satanist is Mark Twain, who wrote at least two novels (Letters from the Earth and A Pen Warmed in Hell which featured favorable portrayals of Satan. Various other well-known writers in the 1800's wrote similar works. And, in the Oxford English Dictionary, one of the definitions of "Satanism" refers to such writers.)
Agreed though I would say that today it is very rare to find a Satanist who does not draw all or most of his beliefs from LaVey, even if LaVey did just effectively ellaborate the ideas of others.
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Old 03-06-2005, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluffy
The reason why I have said that there is no such thing as atheistic Luciferism is because I do not see the difference between this and Satanism in all but name whereas there is a big difference between theistic Luciferism and Satanism.
What big differences do you see between theistic Luciferianism and theistic Satanism?

I've run into many different varieties of both, making it hard to generalize about differences between the two.

Last edited by DianeVera; 03-06-2005 at 04:00 PM..
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Old 03-07-2005, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
What big differences do you see between theistic Luciferianism and theistic Satanism?

I've run into many different varieties of both, making it hard to generalize about differences between the two.
I agree that there are massive variations within Satanism and Satanism related topics so it does make dialect on them more complex. Therefore, I thought the best way to allow people to converse about these subjects more easily would be to look at the majorities in each area and see what they believed. The major difference I see is that whilst theistic Luciferians tend to believe in and follow the antagonist of a given religion (and thereby acknowledging and believing in the protagonist, ie god, as well) whilst theistic Satanists tend to follow a figure which is basically the equivilant of another religion's god and do not believe there is any balancing godlike force.

Now whenever I pose this idea, I normally get a backlash from people who call themselves Satanists and believe in and worship the Christian Satan. My reply to them would be that it is fine if they wish to call themselves Satanists, I am merely describing a different religion which happens to share the name they have chosen. Additionally, I would point out that, generally, their beliefs are more inline with that of Luciferism and not Satanism.
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Old 03-08-2005, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluffy
I agree that there are massive variations within Satanism and Satanism related topics so it does make dialect on them more complex. Therefore, I thought the best way to allow people to converse about these subjects more easily would be to look at the majorities in each area and see what they believed. The major difference I see is that whilst theistic Luciferians tend to believe in and follow the antagonist of a given religion (and thereby acknowledging and believing in the protagonist, ie god, as well) whilst theistic Satanists tend to follow a figure which is basically the equivilant of another religion's god and do not believe there is any balancing godlike force.
I personally have not noticed any significant correlation between (1) identification as theistic "Luciferian" vs. theistic "Satanist" and (2) belief vs. nonbelief in an opposing divine force. Some people in both categories do believe in such an opposing force, while others don't.

I think the main difference between the two categories is that Luciferians typically perceive "Lucifer" and "Satan" as distinct entities wheras theistic Satanists typically perceive "Lucifer" and "Satan" as the same entity or as aspects of the same entity.
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Old 03-08-2005, 09:37 PM
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To the moderators:

Perhaps you might want to consider moving this thread to the Satanism forum (now under Modern Beliefs rather than under Secular Beliefs)?
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Old 03-12-2005, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DianeVera
To the moderators:

Perhaps you might want to consider moving this thread to the Satanism forum (now under Modern Beliefs rather than under Secular Beliefs)?
I've moved it.
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Old 03-14-2005, 07:03 AM
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Fluffy , satanists don`t see Satan as the christians do . For christians , Satan is the ultimate evil , the one that everyone must fear . Christianity gave a lot of prejudices about Satan. In modern satanism , Satan is not a living god , it`s a force that gives energy to this univers . We take it as a symbol . Christians are affraid when it comes to nr.666 , but in reality this number is 9 , and is the number of humanity . If you would like , Satan is our inner force . Lucifer and Satan are not the same . Lucifer it`s seen as the prince of darkness , while Satan is the Darkness . One is the form , the other is the substance.
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Old 03-14-2005, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Era
Fluffy , satanists don`t see Satan as the christians do . For christians , Satan is the ultimate evil , the one that everyone must fear . Christianity gave a lot of prejudices about Satan. In modern satanism , Satan is not a living god , it`s a force that gives energy to this univers . We take it as a symbol . Christians are affraid when it comes to nr.666 , but in reality this number is 9 , and is the number of humanity . If you would like , Satan is our inner force . Lucifer and Satan are not the same . Lucifer it`s seen as the prince of darkness , while Satan is the Darkness . One is the form , the other is the substance.
Well, that's one way of making a distinction between "Satan" and "Lucifer." However, what you've presented here is only one view, not Satanism in general. I do agree with you that the vast majority of Satanists don't see Satan as the Christians do, but there are many different kinds of theistic Satanism.

Anyhow, welcome to this forum.
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