Christians: Predestination? (Earth, salvation, elder, choices, choice) - Page 3

Scuba Pete · #21 02-21-2005, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Than how would you pigeon hole god NetDoc?

uh... I wouldn't. God is amazingly complex for such a simpleton as me. I am happy to know that he is Love (which is WAY personal) and still allows free choice, because true love is predicated on free choice.

Master Vigil · #22 02-21-2005, 07:52 PM

I respect your humbleness here NetDoc. But on other threads you do the same as me. We all try to say what god does and does not do. You say god is love, how do you know that? Youa re pigeonholing god by saying that. Why can't god be both love and hate? Why limit god? I think the god of the christians can't be limited, or else "he" ceases to be god. God is beyond our human understanding, and I think that if we even give it a name, or a title, we are limiting it by our finite language.

Scuba Pete · #23 02-21-2005, 10:25 PM

I get "God is love" from the scriptures. There is a certain duality that God exibits, but rather than limit the limitless, I merely try to understand instead.

keevelish · #24 02-22-2005, 11:21 AM

My point of questioning this as same faith debates exactly. Master Vigil, you cannot debate within the premises of Christianity if you can't understand how NetDoc can describe who God is. There is no debate really, because you can't understand what Christianity is if you're not a Christian- you're not qualified.

keevelish · #25 02-22-2005, 11:23 AM

God gives himself a title, Vigil "I AM."

Melody · #26 02-22-2005, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NetDoc

Melody,

I will try to find those. I know that you can see how his anger seems to explode which appears that he was surprised by their actions.

On the converse, can you show us any verses where God claims to never be surprised?

I think it's possible for anger without surprise. The verses I would quote all have to do with God "knowing" to the end of time. That indicates to me that there can be no surprise.

Melody · #27 02-22-2005, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NetDoc

Here are two...

Jesus was astonished (surprised):

Matthew 8:10 When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.

Here God is "shocked"

Jeremiah 5:29 Should I not punish them for this?" declares the LORD. "Should I not avenge myself on such a nation as this? 30 "A horrible and shocking thing has happened in the land: 31 The prophets prophesy lies, the priests rule by their own authority, and my people love it this way. But what will you do in the end?

I don't see "shock"....just a statement that He has not found anyone else. Same for second verse.

I may see that a shocking thing has happened....it doesn't imply that I'm surprised. For example, I may say that the events in Iraq are shocking...but it doesn't mean I'm surprised. Even I knew where this was going. It's still shocking.

angellous_evangellous · #28 02-22-2005, 11:58 AM

I have been developing my theological balance between God's sovereinty and freewill. I confess that I am a Calvinist, but I am not a fatalist. So I think that God has two types of will: the active and redemptive. That is, I think that there are some things that happen because of God's active will. The active will of God includes His active role in the universe. This includes the destiny of Jesus to die for our sins, the role of Judas, the hardening of Pharoh's heart, etc. As part of God's active will, the participants have no choice and are directed 100% by God's desire. On the other hand, humans for the most part have freewill. We choose to follow God or rebel. However, God does not abandon anyone to their own destruction, unless it is His judgement. As we rebel, God has a redemptive will for our lives. God wants everyone to obey his words, not everyone does this, so He desires that they repent and live a redeemed lifestyle in Jesus Christ.

This being the case:
A girl can be raped by a man. This action is against the surely not the active will of God: He did not actively will for her to be harmed. The man did it in his own freewill, rebelling against God. He can repent, and be redeemed and live his life in Christ. Conversely, the girl can find healing in God's redemptive will. They can both pray and seek God's hand and see how he can work all things together for good in his higher plan.

angellous_evangellous · #29 02-22-2005, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Vigil

I respect your humbleness here NetDoc. But on other threads you do the same as me. We all try to say what god does and does not do. You say god is love, how do you know that? Youa re pigeonholing god by saying that. Why can't god be both love and hate? Why limit god? I think the god of the christians can't be limited, or else "he" ceases to be god. God is beyond our human understanding, and I think that if we even give it a name, or a title, we are limiting it by our finite language.

As a Christian we respect the New and Old Testament Scriptures, written in finite human language, as the authoritative description of the character of the Christian God. Applying reason and responsible interpretation, we can conclude within certain limitations, what the character of our God is. In short, we cannot fully know the character of our God, but quite simply, He has limited what we can know. So while we cannot know what he has not revealed to us, we do know that he has told us that he will not change fundamental aspects of his character.

Therefore, we have been told that Jesus is God. We believe that He showed us the character of the Father, and we are told that character will not change. We can conclude then that the Christian God cannot be both love and hate at the same time, based upon what we do know. There are limits for us.

Master Vigil · #30 02-22-2005, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keevelish

My point of questioning this as same faith debates exactly. Master Vigil, you cannot debate within the premises of Christianity if you can't understand how NetDoc can describe who God is. There is no debate really, because you can't understand what Christianity is if you're not a Christian- you're not qualified.

Well, maybe alot of people don't do this. But I study all different kinds of religions. I actually was christian for the majority of my life, and was going to become a capuchin friar, a 2nd order franciscan, and a benedictine at different points in my life. I've studied christianity and definitely do understand it. I am no less qualified than any other christian to debate on the christian premises. I understand that you didn't know that about me, but I wish you wouldn't judge people so quickly.