Christians: Predestination? (Earth, salvation, elder, choices, choice)

[Master Vigil]

I don't see how god can be surprised. That would make me think he isn't all knowing and all powerful. And that is limiting god. And if you think god is a personal god that means he doesn't just start things, and sit back and watch them play out. But if you think that your choices are beyond gods knowledge, than that is exactly what he is doing. Just letting things play out. Therefore, god is not completely personal. And I don't think alot of you would agree that god just sits there and lets things play out.

[Melody]

Originally Posted by NetDoc

God knows when he is coming again... but he doesn't know WHO is coming. He can be surprised and the Old Testament shows this. There are many things that God does without being a respector of persons:

Netdoc,
Can you give the verses that lead you to believe God can be surprised? Everything I read says it is impossible to surprise God. The Bible states that He knew our names before we were born. There are other similar quotes that teach us that God knows every tiny thing....that nothing surprises Him.

[Melody]

Originally Posted by Master Vigil

They may be our choices, but if god knows which choices we will choose it is because he is above our free will. And if god is above our free will, than even our free will is predestined.

Hmm....I had to go look up "predestination" just to make sure I really did know what the word meant. According to the online dictionaries, it means "The doctrine that God has foreordained all things, especially that God has elected certain souls to eternal salvation. " Another suggested that it also means God infallibly guides those He has selected for salvation.

In which case, I don't believe in predestination because that implies that we do not have free will. That God just dumped us here and said "Let's see....I think I'll take that one and that one and that one and condemned the rest to hell." The Bible clearly states that we all have the opportunity for salvation...but not all will answer.

[Scuba Pete]

Melody,

I will try to find those. I know that you can see how his anger seems to explode which appears that he was surprised by their actions.

On the converse, can you show us any verses where God claims to never be surprised?

[michel]

You might like to have a look at the following:-

Predestination or not?

[Scuba Pete]

Here are two...

Jesus was astonished (surprised):

Matthew 8:10 When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.

Here God is "shocked"

Jeremiah 5:29 Should I not punish them for this?" declares the LORD. "Should I not avenge myself on such a nation as this? 30 "A horrible and shocking thing has happened in the land: 31 The prophets prophesy lies, the priests rule by their own authority, and my people love it this way. But what will you do in the end?

[Master Vigil]

Either god knows whats going to happen or god is not personal. He may know all the choices you can make, but isn't sure which one you will make. But that still seems to me like an impersonal god. Predestination has to do with more than just salvation. Do you think god knows what your thinking? Or what your going to do tomorrow? Or does god know it as its happening like you? If so, god is being surprised and isn't all knowing or all powerful.

[Scuba Pete]

Vigil,

I am not sure God can be so easily pigeonholed. God IS.

[keevelish]

I thought this was same-faith debates?