Christian: Homosexuality and Gay Marriage (Jesus, Creator, the passion, soul)

[Nick Soapdish]

Originally Posted by keevelish

The bible tells us to Judge righteous judgement, and to beware of false doctrine.

Judge? Yes. Persecute? No.

Big difference.

[pcarl]

<The bible says it's a sin, but for some reason I just can't accept that.>

At the time the Biblical authors wrote they had no knowledge of
homosexuality. What they called sin were acts of perversion performed in the
ritual of idol worship. Idolotry was the sin, and the acts of perversion, the consequence. One does not choose a homosexual orientation, the only choice one has is whether or not to engage in homosexual relationships.
whether or not to indulge in

[Melody]

Doesn't it all come down to whether or not we believe that the Bible is God's Word? If we are Christians, isn't it because we believe the Bible when it says that our salvation comes only through faith in Christ and God's Grace?


I believe that the "entire" Bible is the inerrant Word of God. If even one part of it is inaccurate, then logic says that it is not divinely inspired. In which case, why would I believe the part about Jesus? Or any other part for that matter. The Bible states that homosexuality is wrong in Romans 1:26-27.


26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

It appears to be very straight (no pun intended) forward here and I see no confusion, particularly when combined with other Bible verses which I won't get into here since that is a thesis in and of itself.

Originally Posted by pcarl

At the time the Biblical authors wrote they had no knowledge of
homosexuality. What they called sin were acts of perversion performed in the
ritual of idol worship.

Pcarl, I will have to disagree. Homosexuality was a part of the Greek culture so the Biblical authors did have knowledge of it. We can sit and try to justify this any way we want so that we appear tolerant to others, and it's nice to be liked by others, but that trade off comes with a price. What is more important....being liked by others or obeying God's Word?

Originally Posted by atofel

I should mention that just because we say a behavior is wrong, as Christians, we should not persecute someone for that behavior.

I agree. I will even go so far as to say that I disagree with fundamentalists who believe it is the Christian's responsibility to make civil laws enforcing our beliefs since this just a legalized form of condemnation. Since Christ is our example, and since he did not spend his time on earth as a politician trying to change laws, I can infer that I also am to teach by example...lead by example. I will be in this world...not of it.

God did not send His Son into the world to condemn it, but to save it.
--John 3:17


Our first priority as Christians should be to walk in Christ's path and show His love and mercy through our behavior and attitude. We are commanded to spread His Word and we can best do that through example...and allow God to work on their heart.


I have been to some of the more conservative Christian boards and to be honest, if I (as a Christian) see no evidence of God's love among them, how can a non-Christian do any other than respond with disbelief that a loving God created us and wants nothing more than to bring us home to Him.

I don't pretend to understand why God has forbidden homosexuality. It is enough that He has. I won't waste time trying to figure out loopholes. I will obey. I have faith.

[pcarl]

<Pcarl, I will have to disagree. Homosexuality was a part of the Greek culture so the Biblical authors did have knowledge of it.>

Homosexuality, as such, as we understand it today, was not defined until the
18th century. What the Bible condemned:
homosexual rape (Genesis 19),
homosexual ritual sex in Pagan temples (two passages in Leviticus),
homosexual prostitution (many places in the Old Testament)
men molesting boys (1 Corinthians 6)
heterosexuals engaged in homosexual behavior (Romans 1)
men engaging in bestiality with angels (Jude 7)
But the Bible is silent on same-gender sexual activity within a committed relationship.

<We can sit and try to justify this any way we want ..>

And, as with war, those holding opposing views can always justify their position by
refering to the same Bible. It comes down to interpretation. And there seems to be
a clear demarcation between the conservative and progressive mindset.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by true blood

I don't believe a man or woman is born gay. It is their choice. People are born on a level of masculine and feminin and there are many degrees that make people the way they are. People are suppose to join with the opposite of sex to make life so that it continues on.

I too differ here with many Christians. I believe that some are born gay. Just as I am born straight. Sometimes it can be triggered by emotional scarring abuse but for the most part, I believe many are born gay. I cannot prove this anymore than I can that someone is born straight.

Peoples are supposed to join with the opposite of sex to make life so that it continues on...

Do we really need to be fruitful and multiply in the world anymore? There are so many more people. The human race does not rely on a select few to multiply anymore.

And I have failed to see how it hurts me or anyone else on account of someone being gay.

Whether it is moral or immoral is really beside the point to me now.

[precept]

Originally Posted by groovydancer88

This is where I differ from many of my fellow christians. The bible says it's a sin, but for some reason I just can't accept that. It's not like these people choose to be homosexuals. God made them that way, and I feel it's a sin to judge them for what God gave them. Why God himself condemns this characteristic that he gives to his own creation is the concept that I can't grasp.

There are those who say that God: made the "Downs syndrome child" "that way!"....There are those who say that God: made the "the child born with diabetes" "that way!"....There are those who say that God: made the "child born with cancer" "that way!"....There are those who say that God: made "the child born with luekemia" "that way!"....There are those who say that God: made the twins born with a "fused head" "that way!"...There are those who say that God: made the twins born with a "fused pelvis" "that way!"....There are thoe who say that God: made the twins born with a "fused abdomen" "that way!"....There are those who say that God: made the child born with "part male and part female genitalia"[hermaphrodite] "that way!".....

THEN there are those who say that it is God that make the human Christian person develop cancer.....that it is God that make the human Christian person develop heart disease....that it is God that make the human Christian person develop diabetes....that is God that make the human Christian person develop "whatever malady of illness contracted"....

AND finallythat it is God that causes "stillbirth of Infants". Would you say that God caused the "stillbirth of the "common cow" as welll....and also that it is God that causes the child to be born with "cleft palate"...would you say that it is also God that cause the "common house cat" to be born also with a "cleft palate"? And since common farm animals are also born "fused together"....would you say that God causes this to happen as well!....and since "common farm animals" are also afflicted with diseases such as cancers...would you say that God causes these animals to be so afflicted as welll...and what may I ask would be his reasons for so afflicting "farm animals"....."to bring them to himself maybe!

By now if the obvious is not yet seen; I will try to enlighten.

God made the world of plants and animals PERFECT in every regard. Genesis chapters 1-3..."And God saw that everything that He had created and made "Was Good!"

Everything was Perfect and Good before there was sin.

Now read Genesis chapter 3...."the animals are now cursed---verse 14.------humans are also cursed verse 13-17.----and the plants are cursed as well. verse 17-19.

Paul in Romans 8:22 says "For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now".

It is precisely because of sin why the earth complete with its flora and fauna will experience malladies of one sort or another. The prophet David puts it in its proper perspective... "We were shapen in iniquity and born in sin" Psalm 51:5 ....It is therefore by pure chance that when one is "shapen in iniquity and born in sin" that the "chromosomes on segregating during meiosis" could mutate giving rise to a "downs syndrome child". This mallady of sin has an increased chance of occuring, the older the mother, at the time of pregnancy.
It is also a matter of pure chance if all the chemicals are in the right and fully functioning state to produce normal enzymes, properly and rightfully organized sugars and bases of the DNA molecule... all properly functioning.

These are all matters of pure chance seeing that we all are "shapen in iniquity; and born in sin; a fact that leaves us always open to the malladies of a sinfully cursed world.....All! as in all plants and animals are subject to the effect of sin as it is represented these human maladies
Given this fact...We should emit everlasting sounds of praise when we are the beneficiaries of a newborn complete with all its anmatomical and physiological parts in full and normal function.

The conclusion is therefore that: when we are "shapen in iniquity and born in sin" we should expect that this sinful curse predisposes us to maladies of one sort or another. This will include the hormonal imbalance that could see an "individual male" with effeminate behaviour. These maladies could see the individual female with masculine-like predispositions. These maladies could make the individual male with female sensitivities more inclined towards the female behaviour; and the individual female with male sensitivities more inclined towards the male behaviour.
These "abnormal inclinations" though real in experience, are as abnormal as the "craving for sweets" as experienced by a human with the "malady diabetes". These "maladies" direct results of being born in a sinful world are not to be seen as excuses accruing to our benefit seeing because they were not of our choosing. And whether it is that we deny ourselves our favorite foods; which are "normally good foods" but which could cause us to die" given our diabetic condition. Or whether it is that we deny ourselves the pleasure of giving birth to a child seeing as there stands a reasonable chance that the woman of 44yrs stands a great risk of giving birth to a "downs syndrome' child...and Or whether it is...that because of the malady of our sexual inclination to be attracted to "one of the same sex", that we see "whatever our inclination" in the context of what God created "perfect" and "Good".

If the "diabetic" is the standard of "perfect and "good"...then to that standard should all of God's children aspire. Likewise if the "himosexual inclination" is the standard that is "perfect and "good"...then to that standard should all of God's children aspire.

We as children of God are in a world where we are commanded to fight "principalities and powers and the rulers of darkness". In the same context as Adam and Eve were faced with the identical fight to withstand the enemy of all that is "Perfect and "Good"... So we His children must also fight all the proclivities that sin has spawned. "Fighting the good fight of faith; nothing wavering".

Not any one of us has an excuse for giving into any sinful behaviour. And that includes any desire that comes either from within or from without.

Our marching orders! Resist the devil and he will flee from you! James 4:7 Our example was Jesus Himself.....He also was tempted to sin. Just like we are tempted to sin. He never used any excuse to sin...eg; he was hungry when tempted to "turn stones into bread"...and could have used similar excuses; but didn't.


precept

[Melody]

Originally Posted by pcarl

And, as with war, those holding opposing views can always justify their position by
refering to the same Bible. It comes down to interpretation. And there seems to be
a clear demarcation between the conservative and progressive mindset.

And you were doing so well. I agreed with you on the above right up to "It domes down to interpretation." Then you had to do the conservatrive/progressive mindset thing.

I would definitely not be classified a conservative....but I'm also not a progressive. What I am trying to do is find meaning.


{quote=pcarl]Homosexuality, as such, as we understand it today, was not defined until the
18th century. What the Bible condemned:
homosexual rape (Genesis 19),
homosexual ritual sex in Pagan temples (two passages in Leviticus),
homosexual prostitution (many places in the Old Testament)
men molesting boys (1 Corinthians 6)
heterosexuals engaged in homosexual behavior (Romans 1)
men engaging in bestiality with angels (Jude 7)
But the Bible is silent on same-gender sexual activity within a committed relationship.[/quote]
Just because there's no "definition", it doesn't mean it didn't exist or that some societies found it wrong or sinful. Show me proof and I might agree. She me proof by showing me translation errors...not just someone's opinion of what they "think" it meant on a site that is biased *either way*. Show me proof by proving to me that the Hebrews regularly practiced homosexuality and considered it normal. If God considered it a sin in the OT, why would he not in the NT?

Linwood, I'm sorry but the linguist I was going to ask about the verse in the Torah is out of the country for the next month so I'm unable to help on the actual translation from the Torah

[pcarl]

<" Then you had to do the conservatrive/progressive mindset thing.

I would definitely not be classified a conservative....but I'm also not a progressive. What I am trying to do is find meaning.>

I too do not like labels as they usually attempt to pigeon hole ones total views. But having said that, all one need do is consider how the document "Always
Our Children", by the USCCB was received and by who.

<Just because there's no "definition", it doesn't mean it didn't exist or that some societies found it wrong or sinful.>

By definition I mean knowledge of a sexual orientation. What the Bible refers
to is perverted, unatural sexual behavior. Consider that for a true homosexual to engage in sexual relations with the opposite sex is to him perverted, unatural. I think
we all understand that homosexuality is not the sin, but engaging in homosexual behavior is. Now we need to understand just what it is we ask, demand of the homosexual: that he live a celibate life, or deny who he is and live a life that is not
the reality of who he is. Could we as heterosexuals make this sacrifice? I think that if
we are to understand, to be tolorent of homosexuals, then we need to exorcise the
biblical terms of abomination and perversion from any meaningful dialouge.

<If God considered it a sin in the OT, why would he not in the NT?>

"The depravity of the perversion is the merited consequence of pagan impiety; having exchanged their true God for a false one (1:25), pagans inevitably exchanged their true natural functions for perverted ones . . . (Jerome Biblical Commentary, Article 53, Number 26)" Again, the Bible, in both Hebrew Scripture and
Christian Scripture, condemns unatural sexual behavoir. For a heterosexual to engage
in homosexual relations is unatural. And as we are learning more about a homosexual
orientation, we now understand that for a homosexual to have relations with a heterosexual would be unatural. In Romans I:26 they are "abandoning their natural
customs."

<She me proof by showing me translation errors...>

It is not a question of errors in translation, but of sound biblical scholarship.

[Melody]

[quote=pcarlIt is not a question of errors in translation, but of sound biblical scholarship.[/QUOTE]
Ok...I'll accept that as well....but so far I haven't seen it. I have seen lots of opinions for why people think this has been misunderstood....but nothing to back it up. So, unless there is something new to be added, I'll bow out of this conversation.

[Tzeitel]

I really don't see how judging is persecuting in anyway...they're two different things.

Melody, while I agree that homosexuality is condemned by the Bible, I don't believe that Romans 1:26 is about homosexuality. If you look in the Greek the word there for woman is Thelos, which pertains to breast-feeding. This verse may indirectly lead to a condemnation of homosexuality, but it is in fact condemning women who refuse to partake in their God- given ministry- that of bearing children. In all other portions of scripture where homosexuality is mentioned, the men are typically the one's who give themselves over to sodomy first. But here they are spoken of secondly. This of course, still is a perversion of the sexuality that God gave us and the purpose of marriage, so it still leads to a condemnation of homosexuality.