Christian: Homosexuality and Gay Marriage (Jesus, Creator, the passion, soul)

[angellous_evangellous]

This thread is much friendlier than I had anticipated. Thanks to all!

[groovydancer88]

Originally Posted by chris9178

Why? Do you base it on your own belief, or scientific study, or feelings?
I'd like to understand your point of view.

People I've talked to who are gay and articles I've read about gay people all support the idea that these people don't choose to be homosexuals. The lifestyle they have is the only one they are happy in - it didn't feel "right" any other way. Angellous could very well be right when s/he says I may be misunderstanding something - maybe they do in fact make the choice. This would make things different for my point of view...but I'm not entirely certain it would change my mind. This is because I don't think being a homosexual hurts another person or disrespects God, so I don't see what makes it a sin. But maybe I'm misunderstanding this, too - homosexuality sure is a controversy, and has offended a great deal of people. Aside from the Bible saying it is a sin, though, I don't know why. (I don't mean to say that the Bible isn't important - I just fail to comprehend why God deems homosexuality a sin.)

[Nick Soapdish]

Originally Posted by groovydancer88

This is where I differ from many of my fellow christians. The bible says it's a sin, but for some reason I just can't accept that. It's not like these people choose to be homosexuals. God made them that way, and I feel it's a sin to judge them for what God gave them. Why God himself condemns this characteristic that he gives to his own creation is the concept that I can't grasp.

You have struck a key point. Is homosexuality an identity or a behavior? If someone calls themself gay as an identity, that is fine with me. Perhaps they want companionship with another man with no intent to have sex. Perhaps they just like the attention. Heck, I don't know.

It is the sexual behavior that the Bible calls out as being immoral. That being said, the Bible does tend to spend more time focusing on just about every other sin. For example, adultery is a far worse sin, and has greater consequences in our society.

[groovydancer88]

Originally Posted by atofel

You have struck a key point. Is homosexuality an identity or a behavior? If someone calls themself gay as an identity, that is fine with me. Perhaps they want companionship with another man with no intent to have sex. Perhaps they just like the attention. Heck, I don't know.

It is the sexual behavior that the Bible calls out as being immoral. That being said, the Bible does tend to spend more time focusing on just about every other sin. For example, adultery is a far worse sin, and has greater consequences in our society.

Hmm. I understand what you're saying... but why would the identity be ok, and the sexual behaviors not? Let's say there is a homosexual couple, and they truly love each other. We're ok so far, but as soon as they have sex, it's a sin. What's wrong with them expressing their love for each other the way any 'normal' couple who loves each other would? (Premarital sex doesn't count here, since they aren't allowed to be married in this country anyway. Let's just assume that they would be married if the law permitted.) I don't see why that kind of behavior is immoral.

[Nick Soapdish]

Originally Posted by groovydancer88

Hmm. I understand what you're saying... but why would the identity be ok, and the sexual behaviors not? Let's say there is a homosexual couple, and they truly love each other. We're ok so far, but as soon as they have sex, it's a sin. What's wrong with them expressing their love for each other the way any 'normal' couple who loves each other would? (Premarital sex doesn't count here, since they aren't allowed to be married in this country anyway. Let's just assume that they would be married if the law permitted.) I don't see why that kind of behavior is immoral.

Oh boy. This is a touchy subject.

Technically, it is a sin once there is lust, even before the act. Impossible standards I know, but Christianity is not known for a morality based on mediocrity.

I don't claim to be an expert as to why God has made homosexuality forbidden, but I can give you my speculation. I believe it has to do with social dynamics and the fact that homosexuality will always be regarded as a component of sexual liberation. There is an intended design for sexual activity. This design includes a husband and a wife, and it is something that enriches their emotional bond. Anything that strays from that model and becomes socially acceptable will require some degree of sexual liberation in the overall society.

Sexual liberation also includes pre-marital sex, pornography, sexual explicit media, topless bars, massage parlors, prostitution, adultery, etc. Some of these things require a greater degree of liberation to be considered socially acceptable, but I believe you cannot liberate one without influencing the perception of the others. They are all tied together because they stray from the perceived original model. The perception of what this original model should be is rooted deep within our psychology and cannot be replaced through any type of social engineering.

Ultimately, the current gay movement is the result of a sexual revolution that started when the birth control pill started being used.

EDIT: Heh, I forgot where I was going with this. The reason why sexual liberation is bad is because it deteriates the family unit. Symptoms include more single parents and a higher divorce rate. Overall, this is bad for society.

[true blood]

Originally Posted by groovydancer88

Hmm. I understand what you're saying... but why would the identity be ok, and the sexual behaviors not? Let's say there is a homosexual couple, and they truly love each other. We're ok so far, but as soon as they have sex, it's a sin. What's wrong with them expressing their love for each other the way any 'normal' couple who loves each other would? (Premarital sex doesn't count here, since they aren't allowed to be married in this country anyway. Let's just assume that they would be married if the law permitted.) I don't see why that kind of behavior is immoral.

Man is suppose to love another man like a brother, not a wife.

[groovydancer88]

Atofel, True blood, it makes sense what you have to say. Sexual relationships between a man and a man or a woman and a woman are sinful because God created humans so there would be that kind of love between a man and a woman. Basically, it goes against the blueprints for humanity. (Stop me whenever I misinterpret anything you say.) With you so far. But why, then, would God create a man who loves a man? Back to the identity thing, I really don't think homosexuals choose to be homosexuals. If this is so, they will either be sinful or unhappy (or possibly both) their entire life. Why does God make homosexuals the way they are?

[Nick Soapdish]

Originally Posted by groovydancer88

But why, then, would God create a man who loves a man? Back to the identity thing, I really don't think homosexuals choose to be homosexuals. If this is so, they will either be sinful or unhappy (or possibly both) their entire life. Why does God make homosexuals the way they are?

Our lives are riddled with challenges, some much more severe than homosexuality. These challenges are quite varied and come at you from different angles. So why does God gives us challenges, many of which seem very unfair and difficult? Only God knows, but I guess the best answer is that if none of us had any challenges, we really wouldn't have much to live for.

I should mention that just because we say a behavior is wrong, as Christians, we should not persecute someone for that behavior. I have several gay friends. I don't actually know if they have ever been sexually active and I don't want to. But if I did find out, it would not change my relationship with them. I still think it is sinful behavior, but then I think all of my friends are sinners. I say that light-heartedly, but there is some truth to it. You do not have to be perfect to be a friend.

[groovydancer88]

Very good point. I understand now. (I tried to give you frubals, but I don't think I'm allowed to yet...maybe you'll get them later...)

[keevelish]

The bible tells us to Judge righteous judgement, and to beware of false doctrine-

I think it is amazing how society labels all sorts of sin these days as "diseases" and "lifestyles" Alcoholism is not a disease it is drunkeness. Homosexuality is not a lifestyle, it is an abomination.