Christian: Interpretation (priests, Moses, tradition, Epistles, grace)

[Baerly]

athanasius writes -

Where do those passages like 2 thess 2:15 say that all the traditions
of the apostles were eventually written down and included in our new testament? I My understanding of this passage Paul refers to both those traditions which were written down in Letters(epistles) and those traditions orally spoken that were not written down(oral sacred tradition).

Baerly writes, my friend,How are you?

The apostles and those whom they laid their hands upon (Acts 6:6) (Acts 8:18), went about spreading oral traditions. They were being led by the Holy Spirit as to where they went and what they spoke. They were preaching and teaching the WHOLE counsel of God at that point according to (Acts 20:27). Then at some point they (the apostles) began to write down those things they had been preaching and teaching. All the while the Holy Spirit brought back to the apostles memory all things whatsoever Jesus said to them while he was on earth (John 14:26 ; 16:13). If they did not write down all those words, why would the Holy Spirit bring ALL the words of Jesus back to the apostles memory? Especially when the bible says it is by those words we are saved according to (Acts 11:14).

Your understanding is that the oral traditions and those written down differed.

My contention is that they were EXACTLY the same.

They were preaching the whole counsel of God while they were preaching orally to each town (Acts 20:27).

The apostle Paul said he taught the same thing to every church (1Cor.4:17). That same principle would apply to all the other apostles. They would not be holding anything back that would be profitable to the saints (Acts 20:20).

Actually the passages you used do not prove the apostles did not write down every word of Jesus. Again, my contention is that in (2Thess.2:15) the oral and the epistles taught exactly the same thing. This would make sense. It would also harmonizes with what is taught in (1Cor.1:10) (1Peter 4:1) (2Cor.13:11) (1Peter3:8).

Would the apostles tell the saints to do one thing and then do another by not teaching the same thing? No they would not,especially while being led by the Holy Spirit (2Cor.12:12).

[Baerly]

athanasius writes:


"It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors to our own times—men who neither knew nor taught anything like these heretics rave about.

"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles.

"With this church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree—that is, all the faithful in the whole world—and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (ibid., 3:3:1–2).

Baerly writes:

If your church (Catholic) has the apostolic successors,then they of necessity must have the signs and wonders which go along with that office (2Cor.12:12) (Heb.2:3,4) (Mark 16:20). If not why not? If the office has changed,WHO changed it?

The church I belong to started long before the Catholic church ever existed.

I belong to the church of Christ which Jesus built (Mt.16:18). It had its begining in 33 A.D. in Jerusalem. It came in power as we can all read about in (Acts 2).

WE can read about it in prophecy in (Dan.2) (Isa.2) (Joel 2) (Micah 4).

I would be more than glad to speak with you more about this subject. in love Baerly

[Bishka]

Baerly, you've heard of the quote button, yes?

[sojourner]

The church I belong to started long before the Catholic church ever existed.

I belong to the church of Christ which Jesus built (Mt.16:18). It had its begining in 33 A.D. in Jerusalem. It came in power as we can all read about in (Acts 2).

It's a matter of viewpoint only. There is only one Church for us to belong to. The Bible says as much. The Roman Catholics also claim to have begun at Pentecost, as well as the Orthodox. Frankly, history and documentation are on their side.

[writer]

history and documentation (such as the NT) indicate that Roman Catholicism isn't that church

[sojourner]

Originally Posted by writer

history and documentation (such as the NT) indicate that Roman Catholicism isn't that church

In what way? Haven't you changed at all since your own infancy? Should not the Church (being organic in nature) have changed since its own infancy? Of course the Church is not "the same" as in Biblical example. It no longer breast feeds and is long out of diapers. It walks and talks and reasons and contributes to society and has matured in thought, manner and perspective -- just as you have.

Whatever you may enjoy thinking, there is historical evidence to support the apostolic succession, and that apostolic authority remains with the bodies that have always embraced it.

[writer]

In what way?
Christ's church oneness is Him. Not a city, place, or someone else like "Pope" or Rome

Haven't you changed at all since your own infancy? Should not the Church (being organic in nature) have changed since its own infancy? Of course the Church is not "the same" as in Biblical example.
To the contrary: the Lord's and apostles' pattern was complete and mature. Kind of like the revelation Moses got in Exodus of the tabernacle. Moses (and Paul etc) don't have the right to change it. "'See,' He said, 'that you make all things according to the pattern that was shown to you in the mountain," Hebrews 8:5.
Any "church" that's a deviation probably isn't the church, in that way. But a deviation

It no longer breast feeds and is long out of diapers. It walks and talks and reasons and contributes to society and has matured in thought, manner and perspective -- just as you have.
To the contrary: the church is organic, and as such is always gospelizing, growing, and including young, young men, and fathers. In addition, it neither can, nor has, improved upon the apostles' revelation and teaching

Whatever you may enjoy thinking, there is historical evidence to support the apostolic succession, and that apostolic authority remains with the bodies that have always embraced it.
Not only what i'm thinkin, but what i'm both experiencing and knowing, and read in the NT and later history: is that Christ didn't found a hierarchy, or religion, nor religious office. Rather He Himself created believing Jews and Gentiles into one new man in Himself. Thus making peace. And that He's both Head of His Body; and Body, in His believers, of His Head. And that all authority remains with Him, and all those who give themselves to live Him, as His ambassadors "in a chain." Mt 28:18; 2 Cor 2:12-17; 4:1-18.
Gracias

[athanasius]

Greetings and Peace to you Mr Baerly.

Baerly wrote:

“If your church (Catholic) has the apostolic successors,then they of necessity must have the signs and wonders which go along with that office (2Cor.12:12) (Heb.2:3,4) (Mark 16:20). If not why not? If the office has changed,WHO changed it?”

My answer

Thank you Mr Baerly. Indeed historically my Church, the Catholic church was founded by Jesus himself, and both Catholics and Orthodox have apostolic succession and can trace their line of Bishops back to the apostles, thus giving them the Authority of their office. I am not sure why you think that the Catholic church has had no miracles in it.

Our Church for the past 2000 years have been filled with Miracles, prophesies, and spiritual gifts such as healing and tongues, eucharistic Miracles, Miracles of the Blessed Virgin Mary and her apparitions such as Fatima and Lourdes. Many Many of our saints and saintly priests throughout the 2000 year reign of the Church have had these gifts.

Saint Padre Pio, a Priest and Mystic in the 1960’s had these special gifts of healing and others. You can read more about him at http://www.answers.com/topic/pio-of-pietrelcina

He had ecstasies from our Lord, visions, prophesy, healing abilities, stigmata, bilocation and many other gifts. He loved Jesus tremendously and communicated with him mystically throughout his life especially in the Eucharist at Mass. He also had the ability to read minds in the confessional and tell you if you hadn’t confessed a sin.

He preached Jesus and loved him very much. He also loved Jesus Church, the Catholic church. So I do not know what you are talking about. The Orthodox also have their own set of mystics who have had great miracles.

[athanasius]

Baerly wrote:

“The church I belong to started long before the Catholic church ever existed.
.............I belong to the church of Christ which Jesus built (Mt.16:18). It had its beginning in 33 A.D. in Jerusalem. It came in power as we can all read about in (Acts 2).”

My answer
The Catholic church was the first church historically. Every other denomination has historically come from it since the mid 1500’s. It was the Catholic church that decided on the Canon of the New testament that you have in your bible. This was done in the council of Rome 382 A.D. under Pope Damasus and ratified again in the councils of Hippo(393) and Carthage(397)

The Catholic church can trace its origin back to St Peter(Matt 16:13-19) who can trace his origin back to Jesus. Here is a list of Our historic Popes that show succession from Peter to Benedict the 16th:

1. St. Peter (32-67)
2. St. Linus (67-76)
3. St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
4. St. Clement I (88-97)
5. St. Evaristus (97-105)
6. St. Alexander I (105-115)
7. St. Sixtus I (115-125) -- also called Xystus I
8. St. Telesphorus (125-136)
9. St. Hyginus (136-140)
10. St. Pius I (140-155)
11. St. Anicetus (155-166)
12. St. Soter (166-175)
13. St. Eleutherius (175-189)
14. St. Victor I (189-199)
15. St. Zephyrinus (199-217)
16. St. Callistus I (217-22)
17. St. Urban I (222-30)
18. St. Pontain (230-35)
19. St. Anterus (235-36)
20. St. Fabian (236-50)
21. St. Cornelius (251-53)
22. St. Lucius I (253-54)
23. St. Stephen I (254-257)
24. St. Sixtus II (257-258)
25. St. Dionysius (260-268)
26. St. Felix I (269-274)
27. St. Eutychian (275-283)
28. St. Caius (283-296) -- also called Gaius
29. St. Marcellinus (296-304)
30. St. Marcellus I (308-309)
31. St. Eusebius (309 or 310)
32. St. Miltiades (311-14)
33. St. Sylvester I (314-35)
34. St. Marcus (336)
35. St. Julius I (337-52)
36. Liberius (352-66)
37. St. Damasus I (366-83)
38. St. Siricius (384-99)
39. St. Anastasius I (399-401)
40. St. Innocent I (401-17)
41. St. Zosimus (417-18)
42. St. Boniface I (418-22)
43. St. Celestine I (422-32)
44. St. Sixtus III (432-40)
45. St. Leo I (the Great) (440-61)
46. St. Hilarius (461-68)
47. St. Simplicius (468-83)
48. St. Felix III (II) (483-92)
49. St. Gelasius I (492-96)
50. Anastasius II (496-98)
51. St. Symmachus (498-514)
52. St. Hormisdas (514-23)
53. St. John I (523-26)
54. St. Felix IV (III) (526-30)
55. Boniface II (530-32)
56. John II (533-35)
57. St. Agapetus I (535-36) -- also called Agapitus I
58. St. Silverius (536-37)
59. Vigilius (537-55)
60. Pelagius I (556-61)
61. John III (561-74)
62. Benedict I (575-79)
63. Pelagius II (579-90)
64. St. Gregory I (the Great) (590-604)
65. Sabinian (604-606)
66. Boniface III (607)
67. St. Boniface IV (608-15)
68. St. Deusdedit (Adeodatus I) (615-18)
69. Boniface V (619-25)
70. Honorius I (625-38)
71. Severinus (640)
72. John IV (640-42)
73. Theodore I (642-49)
74. St. Martin I (649-55)
75. St. Eugene I (655-57)
76. St. Vitalian (657-72)
77. Adeodatus (II) (672-76)
78. Donus (676-78)
79. St. Agatho (678-81)
80. St. Leo II (682-83)
81. St. Benedict II (684-85)
82. John V (685-86)
83. Conon (686-87)
84. St. Sergius I (687-701)
85. John VI (701-05)
86. John VII (705-07)
87. Sisinnius (708)
88. Constantine (708-15)
89. St. Gregory II (715-31)
90. St. Gregory III (731-41)
91. St. Zachary (741-52)
92. Stephen II (752) -- Because he died before being consecrated, some lists (including the Vatican's official list) omit him.
93. Stephen III (752-57)
94. St. Paul I (757-67)
95. Stephen IV (767-72)
96. Adrian I (772-95)
97. St. Leo III (795-816)
98. Stephen V (816-17)
99. St. Paschal I (817-24)
100. Eugene II (824-27)
101. Valentine (827)
102. Gregory IV (827-44)
103. Sergius II (844-47)
104. St. Leo IV (847-55)
105. Benedict III (855-58)
106. St. Nicholas I (the Great) (858-67)
107. Adrian II (867-72)
108. John VIII (872-82)
109. Marinus I (882-84)
110. St. Adrian III (884-85)
111. Stephen VI (885-91)
112. Formosus (891-96)
113. Boniface VI (896)
114. Stephen VII (896-97)
115. Romanus (897)
116. Theodore II (897)
117. John IX (898-900)
118. Benedict IV (900-03)
119. Leo V (903)
120. Sergius III (904-11)
121. Anastasius III (911-13)
122. Lando (913-14)
123. John X (914-28)
124. Leo VI (928)
125. Stephen VIII (929-31)
126. John XI (931-35)
127. Leo VII (936-39)
128. Stephen IX (939-42)
129. Marinus II (942-46)
130. Agapetus II (946-55)
131. John XII (955-63)
132. Leo VIII (963-64)
133. Benedict V (964)
134. John XIII (965-72)
135. Benedict VI (973-74)
136. Benedict VII (974-83)
137. John XIV (983-84)
138. John XV (985-96)
139. Gregory V (996-99)
140. Sylvester II (999-1003)
141. John XVII (1003)
142. John XVIII (1003-09)
143. Sergius IV (1009-12)
144. Benedict VIII (1012-24)
145. John XIX (1024-32)
146. Benedict IX (1032-45)
147. Sylvester III (1045) -- Considered by some to be an antipope
148. Benedict IX (1045)
149. Gregory VI (1045-46)
150. Clement II (1046-47)
151. Benedict IX (1047-48)
152. Damasus II (1048)
153. St. Leo IX (1049-54)
154. Victor II (1055-57)
155. Stephen X (1057-58)
156. Nicholas II (1058-61)
157. Alexander II (1061-73)
158. St. Gregory VII (1073-85)
159. Blessed Victor III (1086-87)
160. Blessed Urban II (1088-99)
161. Paschal II (1099-1118)
162. Gelasius II (1118-19)
163. Callistus II (1119-24)
164. Honorius II (1124-30)
165. Innocent II (1130-43)
166. Celestine II (1143-44)
167. Lucius II (1144-45)
168. Blessed Eugene III (1145-53)
169. Anastasius IV (1153-54)
170. Adrian IV (1154-59)
171. Alexander III (1159-81)
172. Lucius III (1181-85)
173. Urban III (1185-87)
174. Gregory VIII (1187)
175. Clement III (1187-91)
176. Celestine III (1191-98)
177. Innocent III (1198-1216)
178. Honorius III (1216-27)
179. Gregory IX (1227-41)
180. Celestine IV (1241)
181. Innocent IV (1243-54)
182. Alexander IV (1254-61)
183. Urban IV (1261-64)
184. Clement IV (1265-68)
185. Blessed Gregory X (1271-76)
186. Blessed Innocent V (1276)
187. Adrian V (1276)
188. John XXI (1276-77)
189. Nicholas III (1277-80)
190. Martin IV (1281-85)
191. Honorius IV (1285-87)
192. Nicholas IV (1288-92)
193. St. Celestine V (1294)
194. Boniface VIII (1294-1303)
195. Blessed Benedict XI (1303-04)
196. Clement V (1305-14)
197. John XXII (1316-34)
198. Benedict XII (1334-42)
199. Clement VI (1342-52)
200. Innocent VI (1352-62)
201. Blessed Urban V (1362-70)
202. Gregory XI (1370-78)
203. Urban VI (1378-89)
204. Boniface IX (1389-1404)
205. Innocent VII (1404-06)
206. Gregory XII (1406-15)
207. Martin V (1417-31)
208. Eugene IV (1431-47)
209. Nicholas V (1447-55)
210. Callistus III (1455-58)
211. Pius II (1458-64)
212. Paul II (1464-71)
213. Sixtus IV (1471-84)
214. Innocent VIII (1484-92)
215. Alexander VI (1492-1503)
216. Pius III (1503)
217. Julius II (1503-13)
218. Leo X (1513-21)
219. Adrian VI (1522-23)
220. Clement VII (1523-34)
221. Paul III (1534-49)
222. Julius III (1550-55)
223. Marcellus II (1555)
224. Paul IV (1555-59)
225. Pius IV (1559-65)
226. St. Pius V (1566-72)
227. Gregory XIII (1572-85)
228. Sixtus V (1585-90)
229. Urban VII (1590)
230. Gregory XIV (1590-91)
231. Innocent IX (1591)
232. Clement VIII (1592-1605)
233. Leo XI (1605)
234. Paul V (1605-21)
235. Gregory XV (1621-23)
236. Urban VIII (1623-44)
237. Innocent X (1644-55)
238. Alexander VII (1655-67)
239. Clement IX (1667-69)
240. Clement X (1670-76)
241. Blessed Innocent XI (1676-89)
242. Alexander VIII (1689-91)
243. Innocent XII (1691-1700)
244. Clement XI (1700-21)
245. Innocent XIII (1721-24)
246. Benedict XIII (1724-30)
247. Clement XII (1730-40)
248. Benedict XIV (1740-58)
249. Clement XIII (1758-69)
250. Clement XIV (1769-74)
251. Pius VI (1775-99)
252. Pius VII (1800-23)
253. Leo XII (1823-29)
254. Pius VIII (1829-30)
255. Gregory XVI (1831-46)
256. Blessed Pius IX (1846-78)
257. Leo XIII (1878-1903)
258. St. Pius X (1903-14)
259. Benedict XV (1914-22)
260. Pius XI (1922-39)
261. Pius XII (1939-58)
262. Blessed John XXIII (1958-63)
263. Paul VI (1963-78)
264. John Paul I (1978)
265. John Paul II (1978-2005)
266. Benedict XVI (2005—)