Christian: Demoninations - Good or Bad? (Jesus Christ, ritual, Earth, Kingdom)

[keevelish]

None of them believed exactly as the other churches

If they followed God's word and didn't twist it they would all believe exactly the same thing....
But these were local churches, to carry out the ordinances that Jesus commanded- Baptism and the Lord's supper.

[chris9178]

No*s:

Here's something to consider .

Maybe there still is one Church. Those that broke away from her broke away from the Church, and thus, the churches are not part of the Church.

When you cut off your hand, it dies, because it is no longer part of the body. Why not look at the sects that way?

Well, that would imply that no other church is legitimate. I'm not going to go so far as to say that. As I said, they're God's churches to judge. Besides, I've seen excellent fruit come from many different churches of different denominations. I just think it could be even better with some unity.

[No*s]

Originally Posted by chris9178

No*s:

Well, that would imply that no other church is legitimate. I'm not going to go so far as to say that. As I said, they're God's churches to judge. Besides, I've seen excellent fruit come from many different churches of different denominations. I just think it could be even better with some unity.

That is exactly what it implies, and some teachings of Christ, the New Testament, and the Fathers simply cannot be applied without it. The situation was forming in when the NT was written.

The whole point of 2 Peter is that the heretics split off (with a strong substrata in the book that they did so, because of how they read the Bible), and he is warning his congregation lest they be led astray by them. He even mentions how they "twist" Scripture, because they are unlearned (i.e. not trained in the Church...formal education would be out of the question in the context).

The people that the Apostle John was writing against in I John were people that broke away. "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us, but they went out" (I John 2.19).

Those are my favorite two examples.

We find extra-biblical discussions about this among the Church Fathers. St. Ignatius' epistles make it explicit, which can be found at Silouan's Place. He was taught by the Apostle John. Another good patristic treatise on this would be that of St. Irenaeus, whose writings can be found at this site.

Perhaps the worst danger about the denominations that is easy to see regardless of one's positions is that their interpretations of the Bible relativises Christian truth, and in so doing, removes authority from Christianity. The confusion doesn't end there. It extends even past Christianity into other groups.

Lastly, when you judge who is part of God's people and who isn't solely on the basis of fruit, you run into people like Ghandi, whose life is incredibally moral, but who is also not a Christian. The approach ends up endorsing all religions.

To avoid judgement, remember that God works where he wills. We cannot know the eternal fate of anyone. However, it is only in the Church that God offers to indwell us, but elsewhere this same internalized grace is unavailable. It must work externally (for the Spirit calls all people to Him, even those who have never heard). When we look at it that way, we are not required to judge anyone, not even non-Christians, but we need not compromise the integrity of the Church either.

[chris9178]

That is exactly what it implies, and some teachings of Christ, the New Testament, and the Fathers simply cannot be applied without it. The situation was forming in when the NT was written.

Ok, if you want to argue it that way, then why is it that the Orthodox church is THE church? According to Christ his church would be built on Peter. Isn't that the Roman Catholic Church that the Orthodox Church split from?

We find extra-biblical discussions about this among the Church Fathers. St. Ignatius' epistles make it explicit, which can be found at Silouan's Place. He was taught by the Apostle John. Another good patristic treatise on this would be that of St. Irenaeus, whose writings can be found at this site.

gnosticism is completely out of context

Perhaps the worst danger about the denominations that is easy to see regardless of one's positions is that their interpretations of the Bible relativises Christian truth, and in so doing, removes authority from Christianity. The confusion doesn't end there. It extends even past Christianity into other groups

I agree

To avoid judgement, remember that God works where he wills. We cannot know the eternal fate of anyone

Agree

However, it is only in the Church that God offers to indwell us, but elsewhere this same internalized grace is unavailable.

Disagree

When we look at it that way, we are not required to judge anyone, not even non-Christians, but we need not compromise the integrity of the Church either.

Agree

Sorry can't elaborate! Class starts in 2 minutes!

[Scuba Pete]

The whole point of 2 Peter is that the heretics split off (for entire text see post #24)

They did it by abandoning the doctrines of the apostles. The very doctrine that is found in the NT. If you want to find the church, then look for body that most closely resembles the NT.

[Scuba Pete]

What are denominations but disagreements between differing churches? Paul and Barnabas had a sharp dispute and even split over it.

Acts 15:36 Some time later Paul said to Barnabas, "Let us go back and visit the brothers in all the towns where we preached the word of the Lord and see how they are doing." 37 Barnabas wanted to take John, also called Mark, with them, 38 but Paul did not think it wise to take him, because he had deserted them in Pamphylia and had not continued with them in the work. 39 They had such a sharp disagreement that they parted company. Barnabas took Mark and sailed for Cyprus, 40 but Paul chose Silas and left, commended by the brothers to the grace of the Lord. 41 He went through Syria and Cilicia, strengthening the churches.

Why are there disagreements?

I Corinthians 11:17 In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good. 18 In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. 19 No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval.

Some disagreements are "OK" while some are obviously not.