Christian: Is the Bible inerrantly true? (Jesus, gospel, tradition, evolution)

[Joannicius]

Are you saying that the difference is so insignificant that you would lay down the "and the Son" clause, and deny the Popes infallability, deny indulgences, forget the belief of Purgetory, adhere to the teaching of Uncreated Light, accept our apophatic perspective and be in union? That may do it!

I deeply repect that it is your faith, and you as a person, but have limited respect when it comes to teachings that I believe causes division, not unity of the faithful.

By the way, IMHO, the ones who aren't serious and faithful shouldn't enter in to this discussion, for we have the most serious of matters at stake.

Maybe we should take this to another area, no? yes?

Also, there is quite a difference in having fellowship, respecting another, recognizing the love of Christ in another and having the Most Sacred Eucherist with them. For with it is life and death, healing or harm, growth or emaciation.

[Joannicius]

Of course you know, I speak as a fool. The Great Schism, as it is called was a break in relationship as a divorce and agreeing to facts doesn't heal a marriage. It takes long, hard, arduous labor, if in fact the marriage is ever brought back to a place of health. One of the facts that makes me dogmatic in the relationship between the RC and the EO is that, even though my exposure has been limited to the RC services, all I have experienced have been progresingly more toward minimalism and away from the apostolic faith. As I stated in the past, apostolic succession is meaningless without the keeping of the faith. Also, the definition by the East is encapsulated in the Seven Councils.

[Melody]

I have been struggling with this idea of the Bible being the inerrant and infallible Word of God and still have not come to any resolution but here are a few of my thoughts/quandries.

If I believe that my salvation comes only through Christ's sacrifice and God's Grace, then it must be because I believe what the Bible says since this is the only "proof" we have that tells us He is.

If I believe the Bible is authoritative "proof", then I must believe that it is God inspired because if it wasn't, then why should I believe what some guy wrote 2,000 years ago. This leads me to the conclusion that God inspired the whole book because if even one section was not God inspired, then the validity of the entire work becomes suspect.

This leads me to the belief that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God.

Infallible means "not liable to mislead, deceive, or disappoint" and I'm just not sure the Bible qualifies since it is written in such a way that it can be interpreted (or twisted) by the reader to mean many things. If that weren't so, we wouldn't have all the denominations we do and they wouldn't be contradicting each other.

For example, some Christians interpret a few verses of the Bible in a way that makes women appear second class citizens, inferior to man and under his dominion. However, this view is at odds with the overall tone of the "entire" Bible where women were held in high esteem. The modern day woman in me sees this as "patronizing" but when I look at the times and culture, I realize that it wasn't. I think modern day Christians who use the Bible as a way of keeping women "in their place" forget this as well.

I think sometimes people take their preconceived notions and then "see" what they want to. One more of God's tests?

Anyway, my .02.

[Scuba Pete]

You know Melody,

I am going through much the same dilemma. But I am seeing that the Bible can be inspired by God and still have errors.

In our pride, we demand "proof" from God that he exists. He has already given us far more than we need.

With more pride, we demand clarity for our understanding. He has already given us his Spirit to guide us and that is really all we need. We look to the Bible for rules and regulations, when it tells us that his laws will be written on our hearts.

God inspired prophets to write the scriptures. They were all fallible. They lived their lives in error and it is not too much of a stretch to think that they wrote in error as well. Why?

II Corinthians 4:6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us.

God's power can work through ANYTHING! Errors in man, errors in scripture and errors in translation. He really wants our HEARTS and nothing more.

[michel]

Originally Posted by NetDoc

You know Melody,

I am going through much the same dilemma. But I am seeing that the Bible can be inspired by God and still have errors.

In our pride, we demand "proof" from God that he exists. He has already given us far more than we need.

With more pride, we demand clarity for our understanding. He has already given us his Spirit to guide us and that is really all we need. We look to the Bible for rules and regulations, when it tells us that his laws will be written on our hearts.

God inspired prophets to write the scriptures. They were all fallible. They lived their lives in error and it is not too much of a stretch to think that they wrote in error as well. Why?

II Corinthians 4:6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us.

God's power can work through ANYTHING! Errors in man, errors in scripture and errors in translation. He really wants our HEARTS and nothing more.

That is a good point; I have been through the 'I need proof God' bit, but as you say net Doc, the proof is all around us; the other 'bit' we need to remember is Faith.

As far as the bible is concerned, I have always personally believed that errors have crept in here and there . The saying 'It takes a man to mess things up, but it takes a computer to really mess things up' comes to mind. We are talking of people, like you and me, who have relayed stories throughout the agas (Perhaps even to the point of writing from a biassed point of view)

[Joannicius]

Wow, I love the honesty of you guys......I've been where you are and the transition in accepting (to me what is reality)

any change of dogma was a very difficult struggle. Let it suffice me to say, the Bible doesn't have to be

inerrant to be TRUE......our trust is in the fact that the ones who gave it to us knew they were human and

sinful but still represented God and Truth as best men can. Of course I should say better than MAN can, being

inspired by the Holy Spirit is not a trite and trivial thing as made in this culture. As we see, it many times

cost our lives. (The Orthodox are known as the Church of the Martyrs; in case you don't know it, there were

conservatively 20,000,000 martyred under Stalin)

It is imperative that you experience the worship and teaching of the

Orthodox before you judge by hearsay or by sinful witness as myself.

[Joannicius]

Originally Posted by Melody

For example, some Christians interpret a few verses of the Bible in a way that makes women appear second class citizens, inferior to man and under his dominion. However, this view is at odds with the overall tone of the "entire" Bible where women were held in high esteem. The modern day woman in me sees this as "patronizing" but when I look at the times and culture, I realize that it wasn't. I think modern day Christians who use the Bible as a way of keeping women "in their place" forget this as well.

This is the truth, Christians should see the place Christ gives his mother,

the Theotokos, which means "bearer of God"..........

The highest esteem of mere humans.

I think sometimes people take their preconceived notions and then "see" what they want to. One more of God's tests?

Yes, we do.

Anyway, my .02.

Thank you Melody and Michel and Doc for your candor.

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[Scuba Pete]

our trust is in the fact that the ones who gave it to us knew they were human

Nah, our trust doesn't lie in other humans. It lies in a God who is able to do FAR MORE than we can ask or imagine. After all, he made an a$$ speak, and people like me haven't shut up since!

[Joannicius]

Me also

[Chris]

If dogma isn't important, Christ and the Martyrs all died in vain.

Doesn't it amaze any of the Christians on this board that the

Western Christian (Catholic and Protestant) deny many of the

tennants of The Faith that was held sacred for over one thousand years?????

Yes.... Christ died so that Mary can be venerated, married men can't be priests, and the martyr's can be honored.

Give me a break.

From what I remember, Christ died for our salvation. Christianity is an individuals response, and submission to Christ's authority. So tell me, where do Mary and the saints fit in here????

Basically they make good examples, sermons, and bed time stories, but beyond that they are meaningless in one's salvation.