Christian: Imputed Righteousness and Christ's Work (Jesus, Creator, Earth, salvation)

[No*s]

So...do the members of the board believe that we become righteous through Christ in some way, or do the same members believe that Christ's sacrifice simply covers over our sin and makes it possible for God to not see our sins?

Whatever definition is taken, how does Christ becoming man,dying, and rising from the grave fit in?

As for me, I feel very strongly that Christians are to become righteous, and we are to do this by participating in the very life of God. For this reason, God became man, suffered and died. By doing this, He extended His essence into the corruption we all suffer from and vanguished it.

This, however, does not make sense if we assert that we don't become righteous, but somehow it is just imputed to us. To put it another way, what do you believe about the Atonement and salvation?

[Joannicius]

Our righteousness is a gift that we synergistically work together with The Holy Spirit to become Truly Human and a bearer of Christ's Grace, not essence, as only the Trinity encompasses the essence of the Divine. Our divinity is through this gift and is in the power, with eternal and immortal life of the Creator. By definition, i.e. being eternal from our beginning, and not without beginning as the trinity, and having become immortal through the life of Christ in us, the hope of Glory we become one with the divinity of God in a way that is incomprehensible this side of immortality.

P.S. Just as a side note for those who can’t understand salvation. The process above – if we enter into it – is the “working out of our salvation with fear and trembling”! Conversion is a happening, salvation in dynamic - not static.

[precept]

Originally Posted by No*s

So...do the members of the board believe that we become righteous through Christ in some way, or do the same members believe that Christ's sacrifice simply covers over our sin and makes it possible for God to not see our sins?

Whatever definition is taken, how does Christ becoming man,dying, and rising from the grave fit in?

As for me, I feel very strongly that Christians are to become righteous, and we are to do this by participating in the very life of God. For this reason, God became man, suffered and died. By doing this, He extended His essence into the corruption we all suffer from and vanguished it.

This, however, does not make sense if we assert that we don't become righteous, but somehow it is just imputed to us. To put it another way, what do you believe about the Atonement and salvation?

Your question is most fundamental to understanding why christ came to earth in the first place.
1 Peter 1:17-21 makes the point that Jesus was going to reconcile man even before He had created man. or before ["He laid the foundations of the world".] This being so; He planned man's redemption knowing that man would sin...and the fact that man would sin; also meant that man was never good enough to be worthy of salvation...and this speaks to the fact that man's only hope; if chooses to be saved is to hide behind his Saviour's righteousness...a righteousness ["imputed"] a righteousness that can never be earned by the man "created in sin and born in iniquity"

Christ died for sin as originated by Satan in heaven. ... which sin was practiced by man on earth. Christ died to forever eradicate sin from His universe. Christ would still have to die to cleanse His universe from sin whether a single human accepted Him as Saviour or not.
And it is because Christ knows that even when we accept him that our sinful nature still predisposes us to sin against him...but because we sin when we would rather not sin; he forgives us because we are sorry and because we ask his forgiveness. His death then constantly atones for the sin we [ought to have died for.] He died where we ought to have died making us forever eternally lost...but by his death we are "healed" and saved eternally[undeservedly so].

["But only those who walk in the light as he is in the light; have fellowship with Him' Those who claim to walk with but who are in darkness are not on their way to heaven...They are on their way to hell; while believing that they are on their way to heaven. 1 John 1:5-7


precept

[No*s]

Originally Posted by Joannicius

Our righteousness is a gift that we synergistically work together with The Holy Spirit to become Truly Human and a bearer of Christ's Grace, not essence, as only the Trinity encompasses the essence of the Divine. Our divinity is through this gift and is in the power, with eternal and immortal life of the Creator. By definition, i.e. being eternal from our beginning, and not without beginning as the trinity, and having become immortal through the life of Christ in us, the hope of Glory we become one with the divinity of God in a way that is incomprehensible this side of immortality.

P.S. Just as a side note for those who can’t understand salvation. The process above – if we enter into it – is the “working out of our salvation with fear and trembling”! Conversion is a happening, salvation in dynamic - not static.

Joannicus...you consistently word things better than I .

[No*s]

Originally Posted by precept

Your question is most fundamental to understanding why christ came to earth in the first place.
1 Peter 1:17-21 makes the point that Jesus was going to reconcile man even before He had created man. or before ["He laid the foundations of the world".] This being so; He planned man's redemption knowing that man would sin...and the fact that man would sin; also meant that man was never good enough to be worthy of salvation...and this speaks to the fact that man's only hope; if chooses to be saved is to hide behind his Saviour's righteousness...a righteousness ["imputed"] a righteousness that can never be earned by the man "created in sin and born in iniquity"

Christ died for sin as originated by Satan in heaven. ... which sin was practiced by man on earth. Christ died to forever eradicate sin from His universe. Christ would still have to die to cleanse His universe from sin whether a single human accepted Him as Saviour or not.
And it is because Christ knows that even when we accept him that our sinful nature still predisposes us to sin against him...but because we sin when we would rather not sin; he forgives us because we are sorry and because we ask his forgiveness. His death then constantly atones for the sin we [ought to have died for.] He died where we ought to have died making us forever eternally lost...but by his death we are "healed" and saved eternally[undeservedly so].

["But only those who walk in the light as he is in the light; have fellowship with Him' Those who claim to walk with but who are in darkness are not on their way to heaven...They are on their way to hell; while believing that they are on their way to heaven. 1 John 1:5-7


precept

If I understand you aright, you're claiming that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us, because we cannot become righteous.

If that is, indeed, the correct understanding, why does Christ give commands like "be perfect, even as My Father in heaven is perfect," enable the ability to "become" righteous, or even become a son of God. There is no becoming if we are simply being credited as righteous.

[precept]

Originally Posted by No*s

If I understand you aright, you're claiming that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us, because we cannot become righteous.

If that is, indeed, the correct understanding, why does Christ give commands like "be perfect, even as My Father in heaven is perfect," enable the ability to "become" righteous, or even become a son of God. There is no becoming if we are simply being credited as righteous.

You are right! "We cannot become righteous"...."All our righteousness are as "Filthy Rags".... Isaiah 64:6

The command of Christ to be "perfect as His Father is Perfect" is the same command as echoed by the apostle James in James 1:1-10.

1/...The perfect Christian must count it a joy when he falls into temptation....Or the perfect Christian will always be tempted.

2/....The perfect Christian must have his faith tried by the devil...This enables the perfect Christian to develop his faith in his God.

3/....This perfect patience develops her perfect work; making the CHRISTIAN PERFECT AND ENTIRE, OR "perfect" as God, and wanting nothing or not lacking in any regard re the will of God for the salvation of man

In Jesus' words..."That they all may be one; as thou art in me and I in thee[or perfect in the knowledge of God's will for man's salvation]....that they also may be one ;even as we are one....I in them and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one....and why must they be "perfect in one" ? it is for this and this reason only.....THAT THE WORLD MAY KNOW THAT THOU HAST SENT ME!

Ephsians 4:11-32 sums it up...."Perfectly"....."And he gave some apostles, and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers, for the PERFECTING OF THE SAINTS....TILL WE ALL COME TO THE U N I TY [that they all may be one; as I in thee and Thou in me] And again ...."till we all come in the "unity of the faith"....and "of the knowledge of the Son of God", "U N T O THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE SON OF GOD"-"UNTO A PERFECT MAN"; "UNTO THE MEASURE OF THE STATURE OF THE FULLNESS OF CHRIS;";...."

With this "perfect knowledge of God's salvation Plan"....we are now no more like "children tossed to and fro, and carried about
"WITH EVERY WIND OF DOCTRINE" , BY THE SLEIGHT OF MEN , AND CUNNNING CRAFTINESS, WHEREBY THEY LIE IN WAIT TO DECEIVE."

When we are as perfect as God; we know His perfect will of the saving plan of salvation as perfectly as He knows it....We know it just as perfectly as His Son knows it...
Thus fulfilling the wish of our Saviour for us to be one among ourselves in the belief and understanding and the following of His paln of salvation as He and His Father are one in understanding and following The Plan of salvation.

It is the practice of following "perfectly His Plan of salvation that makes us "entire" /"perfect" /"not wanting nothing".


precept

[No*s]

I don't think that you understand the Greek concept of "perfect." It refers "mature" or "complete." Christ is commanding us to be mature/complete like God.

To put it another way, James 1.1-10 states, in vv. 2-3 to let faith have its perfect fruit in us. He thin proceeds in vv. 5-7 to address another issue, that of a lack of wisdom. They aren't completely synonomous.

Jesus' words "that they all may be one; as thou art in me and I in thee" come in the same book where Jesus affirms "those to whom the Word of God came were called gods" (10.35), insisted that His followers were branches and He a vine, thus sharing in the existence of the vine. In another, He taught that He was the Living Water, and those Who drank it would have it proceeding from them.

What is taught by Jesus' words "That they all may be one; as thou art in me and I in thee" is nothing short of sharing the life of God. He is not talking about simply knowing salvation knowledge, but participating in God.

Ephesians 4.11ff. read in this context becomes a passage about the progression to theosis, not about attaining a special knowledge. In none of these is imputed righteousness taught. Rather, the alternative, theosis, is.

[precept]

Originally Posted by No*s

I don't think that you understand the Greek concept of "perfect." It refers "mature" or "complete." Christ is commanding us to be mature/complete like God.

To put it another way, James 1.1-10 states, in vv. 2-3 to let faith have its perfect fruit in us. He thin proceeds in vv. 5-7 to address another issue, that of a lack of wisdom. They aren't completely synonomous.

Jesus' words "that they all may be one; as thou art in me and I in thee" come in the same book where Jesus affirms "those to whom the Word of God came were called gods" (10.35), insisted that His followers were branches and He a vine, thus sharing in the existence of the vine. In another, He taught that He was the Living Water, and those Who drank it would have it proceeding from them.

What is taught by Jesus' words "That they all may be one; as thou art in me and I in thee" is nothing short of sharing the life of God. He is not talking about simply knowing salvation knowledge, but participating in God.

Ephesians 4.11ff. read in this context becomes a passage about the progression to theosis, not about attaining a special knowledge. In none of these is imputed righteousness taught. Rather, the alternative, theosis, is.

Re Ephsians 4:11-32.
How may I ask can finite sinful beings "man" teach other finite sinful beings "other humans"...to be sinless, perfect, infinite "gods"!

precept

[No*s]

Originally Posted by precept

Re Ephsians 4:11-32.
How may I ask can finite sinful beings "man" teach other finite sinful beings "other humans"...to be sinless, perfect, infinite "gods"!

precept

Because we ingest God in the Eucharist, and with that, are imbued with God's life. Spiritual fathers guide their children along the way so that they don't have to go it alone. The lives of those in the Church before help. We can be baptized into the Church.

All these are part of it: Christ is literally incarnated in His people.

[precept]

Originally Posted by No*s

Because we ingest God in the Eucharist, and with that, are imbued with God's life. Spiritual fathers guide their children along the way so that they don't have to go it alone. The lives of those in the Church before help. We can be baptized into the Church.

All these are part of it: Christ is literally incarnated in His people.

How may I ask can a sinful human person; stained with the sin of 'homosexuality", "fornication"and or "ponography" ...stained with the sin of "lying", "stealing"and oh so many other evils, claim to "hold very God" in his "dirty" "filthy" hands!....Very God Himself says that even if these sinful finte humans were righteous, their righteousness would be "filty rags" in His sight. And yet you claim that these "filty humans" hold very God in their "filthy hands". How blasphemous! Oh! how so very blasphemous!

Very God says that He doesn't dwell in any "temple made with hands" Nor does He reside in the vicinity of anything human! No matter how ill-conceived! or well intentioned the desire of those humans to represent His divinity in the form of worship to Him.
He dwells in the action of every human who represents His character faithfully in hating the act of sinning. It is only in so representing Him that He dwells in us redeemed sinners.


precept