Christian - Once Saved Always Saved? (Jesus Christ, ritual, reject, virgin)

[chris9178]

I'm inspired by a disagreement I had in a Bible Study with, well, practically every other member of that study. This arguement has been around for hundreds of years, and its still a very split issue. What sort of arguments would you use to debate your side?

[TheIdealist]

Faith by works and works by faith a never ending cycle, if Christ died for our sins and taught repentance through "go and sin no more" you must maintain your salvation through faith by works and works by faith. Of course you cant buy your way in through works and yes it is by grace we are saved in the end but we defintly must never stop trying and repenting on a daily basis.

[No*s]

I simply point out this: OSAS requires Calvinist-style predestination or a legalistic salvation. Christianity lacks Calvinist predestination (granted, there are Calvinists who hold to it, but it's actually only possible if we ignore whole passages and take others out of context), and its savlation isn't legalistic. From this, I can safely say OSAS isn't a sound doctrine for Christians.

I would further add that Paul's analogy of the race includes fear that we may be discredited, and he commands us to "work out our faith with fear and trembling" (Phil. 2:12). Further, James states that "faith without works is dead." That which is dead was once alive, and James was writing to Christians. Lastly, Jesus, in His parable of the sheep and goats in Mt. 25 makes it clear to them that some people will think they had it all together in the afterlife, and they clearly believed, but will find that they lacked the right works to go with their faith. Likewise, the virgins lacked oil.

So, no, OSAS doesn't quite fly .

[keevelish]

Christians are saved forever once they accept Jesus as their saviour.

1. They are born, again of incorruptible seed which yields the fruit of everlasting life (1 Peter 1:23).
2. They stand before God clothed in the imputed (credited) righteousness of Christ, and not in their own (2 Corinthians 5:21; Romans 5:19-21).
3. His sheep have been given eternal life-they shall never perish (John 10:28).
4. Their eternal lives are forever hid with Christ in God (Colossians 3:1-3).
5. They are already seated in the heavenlies in Christ (Ephesians 1:3; 2:6).
6. The penalty for all their sin has been forever settled through the perfect and finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 4:23-5:2; 5:6-9).
7. Loss of reward at the Judgment Seat of Christ is certain for the careless Christians, but not loss of salvation (1 Corinthians 3:10-15).
8. God faithfully chastens all of His children, even to the point of taking home those who refuse their Heavenly Father's correction (Hebrews 12:6-11; 1 Corinthians 5:1-5; 11:28-32).
9. They have already been delivered from the wrath to come (1 Thessalonians 1:9,10; 5:8-10).
10. They are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30; Romans 8:23).
11. The Lord knoweth them that are His; false professors will be revealed as such at the White Throne Judgment (2 Timothy 2:19; Revelation 20:11-15; Matthew 7:21-23).
12. God is the one Who has begun the good work in the believer, and He has promised to perform it until the day of Jesus Christ; they are to "work out," not "work for" their salvation (Philippians 1:6; 2:12,13).
13. They are already living stones in the spiritual building of God of which Christ Himself is the Chief Cornerstone (1 Peter 2:5; Ephesians 2:20-22).
14. They are members of the Body of Christ, each with a peculiar function and without each one, the Body would not be complete (1 Corinthians 12:12-27).
15. They are kept by the power of God, through faith, not through the efforts or the works of the one who is saved. (1 Peter 1 :5).
16. Their incorruptible, everlasting inheritance is reserved for them by God (1 Peter 1 :1-4).
17. They are God the Father's irrevocable gift to God the Son (John 17:6,7).
18. Backsliding is a sin, but the blood of Jesus Christ, God's Son, cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1 :7-9)
19. He is able to save them to the uttermost because Christ "ever liveth to make intercession for them" (Hebrews 7:25).
20. They are upon trusting Christ made "accepted in the Beloved" (Ephesians 1:6).
21. Nothing can separate them from the love of Christ (Romans 8:38-39).
22. By one offering He hath perfected forever them that are sanctified (Hebrews 10:10-14).
23. They cannot be unborn (John 3:6-8).
24. Christ dwelleth in them for ever (2 John 2).
25. No man can pluck the Christian out of His Father's hand, and that necessarily includes the believer himself (John 10:29).
26. All who are justified are finally glorified-none are lost along the way (Romans 8:28-30).
27. In their flesh dwelleth no good thing; they are saved by grace (undeserved favor) and not by their own works (Ephesians 2:8, 9).
28. The gifts and calling of God are without repentance; God will never annul His promise or cast out those who have come unto Him through Christ (Romans 11:29; John 6:37; 17:2).

[Scott1]

Originally Posted by keevelish

Christians are saved forever once they accept Jesus as their saviour.

No matter how hard they may try to reject Him.. is that it? Wow... makes life easier than all this "love thy neighbor" crap I've been dealing with.... what a relief!

I'm off to party.... murder.... whatever! I'm SAVED!

[t3gah]

Originally Posted by chris9178

I'm inspired by a disagreement I had in a Bible Study with, well, practically every other member of that study. This arguement has been around for hundreds of years, and its still a very split issue. What sort of arguments would you use to debate your side?

Judas Iscariot. Called 'traitor' in the bible. Once apostle wasn't forgiven for his dead of betraying Jesus.

[Druidus]

Wow, if this is true, I'm covered either way! Thanks!

[No*s]

Originally Posted by keevelish

Christians are saved forever once they accept Jesus as their saviour.
1.They are born, again of incorruptible seed which yields the fruit of everlasting life (1 Peter 1:23).

It's an analogy. The implication is that the faith of Christ is incorrupt, and it does yield everlasting life. However, in the context of I Peter we read:

"Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you in the revelation of Jesus Christ: as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance, but as He who called you is holy you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, "Be holy, for I am holy." And if you call on the Father who without partiality judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here, in fear: knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible through the word of God which lives and abides forever. (I Pet. 1.13-23, emphasis added)[/quote]

It seems in context, it doesn't say what your single verse quotation said.

Originally Posted by keevelish

They stand before God clothed in the imputed (credited) righteousness of Christ, and not in their own (2 Corinthians 5:21; Romans 5:19-21).

Could you point out to me the imputed righteousness here? I don't see it. I see, rather, people transformed so that they actually participate in the righteousness of Christ.

The teaching in II Cor. that we "might become the righteousness of God in Him" doesn't say anything about us having Christ's righteousness imputed upon us. It says, quite plainly, we become the righteousness of God, no imputation involved.

In Romans, we find that death entered through Adam, and just so life entered in Christ. Again, though, nothing about imputation. It simply teaches that grace abounds where there was death, and the more that was dead, the more grace makes alive. The Christian isn't supposed to have imputed life. He is supposed to live, and we do this by becoming, not by being imputed IMO.

Originally Posted by keevelish

3 His sheep have been given eternal life-they shall never perish (John 10:28).

I can grant a degree of strength to this one, only if you believe in predestination. John, if interpreted in a predestinarian context, could allow that. However, since you seem to deny that by affirming we must "accept" Christ, the same interpretive principles that deny predestination deny an individualistic interpretation here. Rather, Christ would be talking about His people, and that the people would never be corrupted and removed. Compare this with His promise that the Gates of Hades will not prevail against His Church.

Originally Posted by keevelish

4 Their eternal lives are forever hid with Christ in God (Colossians 3:1-3).

Paul, though, goes on to say "put to death your members which are on earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, in which you yourselves once lived in them" and so on (vv. 5ff.).

What does he mean by "hidden," then? Well, it doesn't mean simply covered over with another life, to be sure. Our answer lies in v. 4. He says "When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory," or more specifically vv. 10-11. There we find that this happens on account of putting on the "New Man." This, however, isn't yet done. Paul commands his audience to do it. It continues to be renewed (present tense, with the perfect for "put on"), and in the context, this renewel can be nothing but our good deeds. Nothing else is hinted at.

Thus, again, we don't find OSAS.

Originally Posted by keevelish

5 They are already seated in the heavenlies in Christ (Ephesians 1:3; 2:6).

Verse 1.6 says nothing about security. 2.6, though, leads into vv. 8-10 where Paul explains that works aren't the cause of our salvation, but grace (the working of God) so that the Christian may perform good works. This, in its turn, leads to vv. 11ff. where he explains that the believers have been made a part of Christ, that they are in Christ. Ultimately, I can take this to vv. 19-20, where Christ is the cornerstone of a building still being build. Most importantly here, it is still being fitted together.

The verse says nothing about OSAS, and while it doesn't blatantly contradict it, it's pretty easy to understand in a contradictory manner.

Originally Posted by keevelish

The penalty for all their sin has been forever settled through the perfect and finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 4:23-5:2; 5:6-9).

Here we get to a verse that sounds like it means imputed righteousness, but when we remove from it the Western terminology, we see it says no such thing. "justify" also can be translated "made righteouss." In the former, it means to satisfy some legal penalty so that the actions are acceptable. In the latter, it refers to changing the character of the individual. As an Orthodox Christian, my Church has always gone for the latter, and has always lacked the Western terminology.

Also, when understood this way, Christ's death on the cross deals with our corruption, not our guilt. It isn't a legal transaction. In the other phronema, we are able to endure tribulations, on account of the "love of God" and the Holy Spirit (v. 6). It, thus, says nothing about OSAS.

Originally Posted by keevelish

6 Loss of reward at the Judgment Seat of Christ is certain for the careless Christians, but not loss of salvation (1 Corinthians 3:10-15).

If you tack on vv. 16-17, this passage is actually hostile to OSAS, and I think that's why you make the division you do of "loss of reward" but not "loss of salvation." It is a warning. "Do you know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are." It's pretty apparent here that the ones who defile the temple of God are the people who are the Temple of God.

Taken with these two verses, those who defile the Temple of God, are also the same ones who are destroyed by the wrath of God. This passage makes no division between eternal salvation and loss of reward. They are synonomous. This is the same author, after all, that warns the gentiles that they are wild olive branches grafted in, and that the wild branches shouldn't boast, lest they be cut off and cast into the fire (Hell) in Romans 11.

With that, however, I'm going to stop commenting on verses. It's tedious at best to go through and show in verse after verse how it doesn't apply, especially when there's so many. I think I've shown a fairly good amount of answers simply going line by line, and not picking and choosing. Further, I think I'm nearing the character limit.

[No*s]

Originally Posted by Druidus

Wow, if this is true, I'm covered either way! Thanks!

Many thanks for the help here Druidus .

You see, Druidus has exposed another part of the problem. He was once Christian and has decided to become a Druid. Traditionally, this is a severe offense, but in OSAS, he can butter his bread on both sides.

[chris9178]

A few things....

I think saying that OSAS requires pre-destination is taking quite a bit of liberty in itself. There isn't a convincing connection between the two. You could use one to support the belief of the other, but each is completely interdependent.

Secondly, simply listing a host of scripture verses is a very poor way to defend any doctrine, or idea. When you list, as Keevelish has done, a series of verses without any sort of accompaning remarks, or interpretation in the least, then you leave yourself open to discrediting.
For example, you have listed:

20 They are upon trusting Christ made "accepted in the Beloved" (Ephesians 1:6).

One can only assume that you, by some revelation, interpret this to defend your statement. Well, everybody else is going to come by and see things such as this and guess that, you either put it there to fill up space, not thinking that anybody would actually read through your post, or your knowledge of this subject is so weak that you indescriminately toss about quotes without bothering to think about them.

I can't, for the life of me, see how your #20 has anything to do with OSAS.... unless your taking even further liberty than No*s and saying that "accepted into the Beloved" translates into "saved for all eternity".

And another thing,

"They cannot be unborn (John 3:6-8)."

I looked that up, simply because of the directness of the statement. It would have been convincing had John 3:6-8 actually said anything such as that. Could you explain that one?

Now I'm sorry if I sound a little condescending, and possibly sarcastic, but the fact of the matter is that just using one verse from the Bible and expounding on it would be much more convincing than taking scripture out of context to manipulate into saying what I want it to say.

Here are some other arguments that were told to me that night:

Man doesn't have the ability to get rid of Jesus.

If a christian leads a holy life, but steals something just before he dies, will he go to hell? (this is obviously an extreme, and a hypothetical situation, not meant to be realistic, just to get the point across...)

Where do you draw the line? When do you become unsaved?

Those are the three I recall at the moment. I have my own answers to those, but I'm very interested in hearing either some added arguements, or counter-arguments. Scriptural referencing would be good IN context and WITH accompaning remarks.


I do have one more thing to ask. Is everybody at least in agreement that one side is right, and the other is wrong (or possibly even both are wrong...)?
Either way it goes, we are either saved once and for life, or we are not.