Christian or Judaism: Moses is God and Word is God. Jesus is Moses and Elijah (Earth, Torah)

[t3gah]

Originally Posted by No*s

OK.

In Jn. 10.34ff, Jesus defends His divinity by saying that the Word came to the authors of Scripture and made them "gods" to defend His calling Himself God. He said, in essence, "If the Word made men gods, why do you accuse me of blasphemy because I, who come from the Father [i.e. is the Word] claim to be the Son of God?" I went over this quite a bit in my recent same faiths debate, and I think it was pretty conclusive.

To put it another way, the Early Church taught "God became man so that men might become gods." This puts the parable of the vine, the promise of adoption, and several other things into a whole new light.

Jesus promised to be able to make men extensions of the divine, and that's something Moses could not do.

I See now, thanks for the explanation. Moses could not be divine or promise divine things. I remember now. God speaks to Aaron and Moses about the things they both shall do for God, etc.

The part about the vine and men might become gods. Do you have some references for that you can post?


This doesn't answer the part about Jesus being Moses and Elijah which I got all messed up here because that's not what I meant to post. I should have made two separate debates here since these are obviously two separate idea's. Which I have done. I got all mixed up with the two thoughts and one debate. I cleared this all up in another thread I've started.

[No*s]

Originally Posted by t3gah

I See now, thanks for the explanation. Moses could not be divine or promise divine things. I remember now. God speaks to Aaron and Moses about the things they both shall do for God, etc.

The part about the vine and men might become gods. Do you have some references for that you can post?

Yes, look in my Same Faith debate on John 1.1. You'll find a rather exhaustive (for a forum) list. if you want me to copy and paste it, I will. For dates, our first reference to the phrases like "God became man so that men might become gods" comes from St. Irenaeus, and it is still used (obviously...I just did lol). The theology is in the book of John, as I outlined, and it is the underlying theology to the Eucharist: You eat God, so you can see the theology in the Synoptics clear as day (as an unspoken presupposition). They also make a point of saying Christ gives power to become sons of God, and theosis (God becoming man so that we can live in God) is the "how" it was done.

Originally Posted by t3gah

This doesn't answer the part about Jesus being Moses and Elijah which I got all messed up here because that's not what I meant to post. I should have made two separate debates here since these are obviously two separate idea's. Which I have done. I got all mixed up with the two thoughts and one debate. I cleared this all up in another thread I've started.

No, I didn't. I'm sorry.

They're connected in how you are viewing them, but here's another: Jesus didn't turn into Moses and Elijah. Moses and Aaron came to Christ, so that all three were there. The light of the Transfiguration, naturally, comes from Christ (and shines in all three). Thus, Christ was transfigured, but He wasn't Moses and Elijah.

[t3gah]

Originally Posted by No*s

Yes, look in my Same Faith debate on John 1.1. You'll find a rather exhaustive (for a forum) list. if you want me to copy and paste it, I will. For dates, our first reference to the phrases like "God became man so that men might become gods" comes from St. Irenaeus, and it is still used (obviously...I just did lol). The theology is in the book of John, as I outlined, and it is the underlying theology to the Eucharist: You eat God, so you can see the theology in the Synoptics clear as day (as an unspoken presupposition). They also make a point of saying Christ gives power to become sons of God, and theosis (God becoming man so that we can live in God) is the "how" it was done.




No, I didn't. I'm sorry.

They're connected in how you are viewing them, but here's another: Jesus didn't turn into Moses and Elijah. Moses and Aaron came to Christ, so that all three were there. The light of the Transfiguration, naturally, comes from Christ (and shines in all three). Thus, Christ was transfigured, but He wasn't Moses and Elijah.

This means that my other thread "... son of man... heaven.. " is correct with the assumption that Moses and Elijah went to heaven, came down for the account with Peter, John and James, and then went back to heaven again.

Ezekiel is called "son of man" many times, etc., but my other thread goes into way more detail than I will go into here.

Thanks for the explanation. Can you post your Same Faith Debate link here please?

[No*s]

Originally Posted by t3gah

This means that my other thread "... son of man... heaven.. " is correct with the assumption that Moses and Elijah went to heaven, came down for the account with Peter, John and James, and then went back to heaven again.

Ezekiel is called "son of man" many times, etc., but my other thread goes into way more detail than I will go into here.

Thanks for the explanation. Can you post your Same Faith Debate link here please?

I don't fancy to know with that much detail what happened . Who's to say heaven is even a place? Rather, I simply say they appeared and disappeared. There's no need to over-speculate there, because that will lead to problems.

Debate:
Christian: Why is Christ what He is in John?