Yahweh: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice... (Sodom & Gomorrah) (moral, punishment)

[t3gah]

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Moderators: I put Yahweh in the title instead of God or Jehovah or YHWH or JHVH or haShem or G-d to denoted the bible God because they just wouldn't fit with my other choice of words. Nor is Christian a likely term to use since this pertains to Judaism as well, but no other Abrahamic religions.
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There's an old saying and it goes like this:

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

The biblical accounts go on to state that both Sodom & Gomorrah were doing things that God (Yahweh) didn't like and the stench of which was reaching up to heaven with their offenses.

The question I have for all those who believe in the bible account and the justice God used to resolve the situation.

If you have any scriptures to back up your comments please post them because quite frankly I'm at a loss of why God would do a double-take and ignore the rest of time before Armageddon.

So, from your point of view or personal opinion, why do you think the bible God went through all the trouble with Sodom & Gomorrah in bible times but let that sort of behaviour go unchecked in modern times?

[anders]

Originally Posted by t3gah

The biblical accounts go on to state that both Sodom & Gomorrah were doing things that God (Yahweh) didn't like and the stench of which was reaching up to heaven with their offenses.

The Bible says that God took the trouble to go down to earth to investigate. That is, even in his omniscience, he wasn't quite sure. In spite of the nvestigation, supported by two men (angels?), there is no matnioning jn the Bible that anything contrary to God's laws was found on the investigation. There was a crowd assembled in front of Lot's house, but no actual violence occurred, etc.

So, from your point of view or personal opinion, why do you think the bible God went through all the trouble with Sodom & Gomorrah in bible times but let that sort of behaviour go unchecked in modern times?

I don't understand what kind of behaviour you are referring to. The citizens of Sodom and Gomorrah were said (in the Bible, and in Jewish scriptures) to have been inhospitable, unjust and using many an unethical means to oppress their fellow citizens. Very few specifics are mentioned regarding their crimes, and for any fundies I'd like to point out that there certainly is no mentioning anywhere in the bible of any homosexual activity in the cities. Just think of the very clear statement that "all the people of Sodom, young and old" were assembled before Lot's house. How could anyone think of same-sex activities in front of young girls and old women? It is sufficiently clear that the inhabitants of Sodom, who recently had been at war, wanted to know what kind of people the foreigner Lot had admitted into the city.

My interpretation of the pericope is that the ancient writer just wanted to tell his fellow expats in Babylon that their Lord would rescue his people from any tight spot, if they only would believe in him.

[Jayhawker Soule]

Originally Posted by anders

The Bible says that God took the trouble to go down to earth to investigate. That is, even in his omniscience, he wasn't quite sure.

Beautiful!

[Scott1]

Just a reminder.... this is the SAME faith debate forum.... if you are not a current member of a Abrahamic religion as we define it.... please do not participate in this debate.

Scott

[Jayhawker Soule]

You are absolutely correct. My oversight ... and my apologies.

[kiwimac]

Well I am a Christian and I second Deut's comments.

Kiwimac

[Scuba Pete]

I don't think Lot and party were doing what God wanted them to do... preach his words.

There was NO ONE in that city who was Godly. Not one.

Lot might have made a difference, but did not. That is the real tragedy.

So God popped two pimples that were going to spread. He obviously was not ready to bring about the destruction of the entire earth as he still had to save it first.

[t3gah]

Originally Posted by anders

The Bible says that God took the trouble to go down to earth to investigate. That is, even in his omniscience, he wasn't quite sure. In spite of the nvestigation, supported by two men (angels?), there is no matnioning jn the Bible that anything contrary to God's laws was found on the investigation. There was a crowd assembled in front of Lot's house, but no actual violence occurred, etc.

I don't understand what kind of behaviour you are referring to. The citizens of Sodom and Gomorrah were said (in the Bible, and in Jewish scriptures) to have been inhospitable, unjust and using many an unethical means to oppress their fellow citizens. Very few specifics are mentioned regarding their crimes, and for any fundies I'd like to point out that there certainly is no mentioning anywhere in the bible of any homosexual activity in the cities. Just think of the very clear statement that "all the people of Sodom, young and old" were assembled before Lot's house. How could anyone think of same-sex activities in front of young girls and old women? It is sufficiently clear that the inhabitants of Sodom, who recently had been at war, wanted to know what kind of people the foreigner Lot had admitted into the city.

My interpretation of the pericope is that the ancient writer just wanted to tell his fellow expats in Babylon that their Lord would rescue his people from any tight spot, if they only would believe in him.

(World English Bible)

Genesis 19:1 The two angels came to Sodom at evening. Lot sat in the gate of Sodom. Lot saw them, and rose up to meet them. He bowed himself with his face to the earth, 19:2 and he said, “See now, my lords, please turn aside into your servant’s house, stay all night, wash your feet, and you can rise up early, and go on your way.”

They said, “No, but we will stay in the street all night.”

19:3 He urged them greatly, and they came in with him, and entered into his house. He made them a feast, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate. 19:4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, surrounded the house, both young and old, all the people from every quarter. 19:5 They called to Lot, and said to him, “Where are the men who came in to you this night? Bring them out to us, that we may have sex with them.”

19:6 Lot went out to them to the door, and shut the door after him. 19:7 He said, “Please, my brothers, don’t act so wickedly. 19:8 See now, I have two virgin daughters. Please let me bring them out to you, and you may do to them what seems good to you. Only don’t do anything to these men, because they have come under the shadow of my roof.”

19:9 They said, “Stand back!” Then they said, “This one fellow came in to live as a foreigner, and he appoints himself a judge. Now will we deal worse with you, than with them!” They pressed hard on the man Lot, and drew near to break the door. 19:10 But the men put forth their hand, and brought Lot into the house to them, and shut the door. 19:11 They struck the men who were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great, so that they wearied themselves to find the door.

19:12 The men said to Lot, “Do you have anybody else here? Sons-in-law, your sons, your daughters, and whoever you have in the city, bring them out of the place: 19:13 for we will destroy this place, because the outcry against them has grown great before Yahweh that Yahweh has sent us to destroy it.”

19:14 Lot went out, and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were pledged to marry his daughters, and said, “Get up! Get out of this place, for Yahweh will destroy the city.”

But he seemed to his sons-in-law to be joking. 19:15 When the morning came, then the angels hurried Lot, saying, “Get up! Take your wife, and your two daughters who are here, lest you be consumed in the iniquity of the city.” 19:16 But he lingered; and the men grabbed his hand, his wife’s hand, and his two daughters’ hands, Yahweh being merciful to him; and they took him out, and set him outside of the city. 19:17 It came to pass, when they had taken them out, that he said, “Escape for your life! Don’t look behind you, and don’t stay anywhere in the plain. Escape to the mountains, lest you be consumed!”

19:18 Lot said to them, “Oh, not so, my lord. 19:19 See now, your servant has found favor in your sight, and you have magnified your loving kindness, which you have shown to me in saving my life. I can’t escape to the mountain, lest evil overtake me, and I die. 19:20 See now, this city is near to flee to, and it is a little one. Oh let me escape there (isn’t it a little one?), and my soul will live.”

19:21 He said to him, “Behold, I have granted your request concerning this thing also, that I will not overthrow the city of which you have spoken. 19:22 Hurry, escape there, for I can’t do anything until you get there.” Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.

19:23 The sun had risen on the earth when Lot came to Zoar.

19:24 Then Yahweh rained on Sodom and on Gomorrah sulfur and fire from Yahweh out of the sky. 19:25 He overthrew those cities, all the plain, all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew on the ground. 19:26 But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.

19:27 Abraham got up early in the morning to the place where he had stood before Yahweh. 19:28 He looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and looked, and saw that the smoke of the land went up as the smoke of a furnace.

19:29 It happened, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the middle of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in which Lot lived.



2 Peter 2:4 For if God didn’t spare angels when they sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 2:5 and didn’t spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah with seven others, a preacher of righteousness, when he brought a flood on the world of the ungodly; 2:6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly; 2:7 and delivered righteous Lot, who was very distressed by the lustful life of the wicked 2:8 (for that righteous man dwelling among them, was tormented in his righteous soul from day to day with seeing and hearing lawless deeds):



Jude 5 Now I desire to remind you, though you already know this, that the Lord, having saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who didn’t believe. 6 Angels who didn’t keep their first domain, but deserted their own dwelling place, he has kept in everlasting bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day. 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, having, in the same way as these, given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

[t3gah]

(World English Bible)

Leviticus 18:1 Yahweh said to Moses, 18:2 “Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them, ‘I am Yahweh your God. 18:3 You shall not do as they do in the land of Egypt, where you lived: and you shall not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you; neither shall you walk in their statutes. 18:4 You shall do my ordinances, and you shall keep my statutes, and walk in them: I am Yahweh your God. 18:5 You shall therefore keep my statutes and my ordinances; which if a man does, he shall live in them: I am Yahweh.

18:6 “‘None of you shall approach anyone who are his close relatives, to uncover their nakedness: I am Yahweh.

18:7 “‘You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father, nor the nakedness of your mother: she is your mother. You shall not uncover her nakedness.

18:8 “‘You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father’s wife: it is your father’s nakedness.

18:9 “‘You shall not uncover the nakedness of your sister, the daughter of your father, or the daughter of your mother, whether born at home, or born abroad.

18:10 “‘You shall not uncover the nakedness of your son’s daughter, or of your daughter’s daughter, even their nakedness: for theirs is your own nakedness.

18:11 “‘You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father’s wife’s daughter, conceived by your father, since she is your sister.

18:12 “‘You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father’s sister: she is your father’s near kinswoman.

18:13 “‘You shall not uncover the nakedness of your mother’s sister: for she is your mother’s near kinswoman.

18:14 “‘You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father’s brother, you shall not approach his wife: she is your aunt.

18:15 “‘You shall not uncover the nakedness of your daughter-in-law: she is your son’s wife. You shall not uncover her nakedness.

18:16 “‘You shall not uncover the nakedness of your brother’s wife: it is your brother’s nakedness.

18:17 “‘You shall not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter. You shall not take her son’s daughter, or her daughter’s daughter, to uncover her nakedness; they are near kinswomen: it is wickedness.

18:18 “‘You shall not take a wife to her sister, to be a rival, to uncover her nakedness, while her sister is yet alive.

18:19 “‘You shall not approach a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is impure by her uncleanness.

18:20 “‘You shall not lie carnally with your neighbor’s wife, and defile yourself with her.

18:21 “‘You shall not give any of your children to sacrifice to Molech; neither shall you profane the name of your God: I am Yahweh.

18:22 “‘You shall not lie with a man, as with a woman. That is detestable.

18:23 “‘You shall not lie with any animal to defile yourself with it; neither shall any woman give herself to an animal, to lie down with it: it is a perversion.

[t3gah]

If there was no homosexuality going on in bible times, then why did God have Moses tell the Israelites what he did in Leviticus 18:22?

Because other nations were doing it, the detestable thing of men having sex with other men and God didn't want his chosen people doing what the pagan's were doing.


(World English Bible)
1 Corinthians 6:9 Or don’t you know that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t be deceived. Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexuals, 6:10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor extortioners, will inherit the Kingdom of God.