Muslims: "Let Jesus Die, for in his Death is Islam's Life"

[tariqkhwaja]

Assalamualaikum.

The Holy Quran talks about Jesus' death so often and in so many different ways that one realizes God must have known the misconception that will become prevalent among Muslims.

[5:117] And when Allah will say, 'O Jesus, son of Mary, didst thou say to men, 'Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah?' he will answer, 'Holy art THOU, I could never say that which I had no right. If I had said it, Thou wouldst have surely known it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy mind. It is Thou alone Who art the Knower of all hidden things;
[5:118] 'I said nothing to them except that which Thou didst command me - Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them, but since Thou didst cause me to die, Thou, hast been the Watcher over them, and Thou art Witness over all things;

The word "Tawaffi" used in 118 translates to death. Any arab will tell you that.

[Ilias Ahmad]

Originally Posted by Qadiani

The word "Tawaffi" used in 118 translates to death. Any arab will tell you that.

اللَّهُ يَتَوَفَّى الْأَنفُسَ حِينَ مَوْتِهَا وَالَّتِي لَمْ تَمُتْ فِي مَنَامِهَا
It is Allah that takes the soul at death, and those that die not during their sleep
(Holy Qur'an 39:42)

The word yatawaffa here means take, which is its literal meaning. Allah explains that during death the soul is taken, and similarly during sleep, the soul is taken. The word does not always necessarily mean death, and the above cited verse is a perfect example. In the case of 'Eesa ibn Mariam (alaihi salatu wa salam), he was taken by Allah in person, it doesn't mean Allah caused him to die.

إِذْ قَالَ اللّهُ يَا عِيسَى إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَيَّ
Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus, I shall take you and raise you to Myself..."
(Holy Qur'an 3:55)

We know that when Allah says in this verse He will take Jesus, it does not mean death, but it means He is physically taking him, because in extension to that the verse says wa rafi'uka ilayya which means "and raise you to Myself". Because these two phrases are joined into one sentence, than it clearly means Allah is physically taking Jesus (alaihi salatu wa salam) up into the heavens, rather than causing him to die.

بَل رَّفَعَهُ اللّهُ إِلَيْهِ
"Nay, Allah raised him (Jesus) up to Himself..."
(Holy Qur'an 4:158)

If you read the context of this verse, you find that Allah is talking about how the Jews tried to kill Jesus, but instead Allah thwarted their plans to do so. Than in order to explain what happened to Jesus subsequently, Allah says He raised him to himself, which can only mean that Jesus was physically raised, not merely "spiritually exalted" as Qadianis deceptively claim.

[tariqkhwaja]

Firstly, welcome back.

2. There are five conditions that must be fulfilled and if these conditions are fulfilled 100% death is proven. This is a challenge that was given by the Promised Messiah, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, ages ago and still stands unthwarted.
a. The core of the Arabic word is وَ- فَّ -ى
b. The "Bab" (or chapter) is Affa'el.
c. The "Fa'ael" (the one who does the action) is God.
d. The one being acted upon posesses a soul
e. There is no "Qareena", i.e. there are no nearby words indicating a meaning other than death, e.g. there is a verse in the Quran that says "sleep during night" where "wafi" core is used but "night" indicates that it must mean something else because not everyone dies at night.

Ask any Arab scholar and if the above five conditions are fulfilled the only and only meaning is death. And in the verse of Surah Al Maidah that I quoted in my previous quote that is the case.

3. "He raised to Himself" can never mean literally because God is everywhere and not only high up in the heavens. He is nearer to us than our artereol. In fact the use of the word "to Himself" proves our point even more. It has to mean spiritually because only spiritually humans are distant or near God. Physically everyone is equally distant.

I hope there are no legitimate reasons to ban you this time. Please look at the above with an open heart and open mind. And please remember this dog in your prayers. Thank you.

[Ilias Ahmad]

Originally Posted by Mirzai kafir

e. There is no "Qareena", i.e. there are no nearby words indicating a meaning other than death

Yes there is, that is my whole point. Allah says wa rafi'uka ilayya and this is the "qareena", this is the proof that 'Eesa (alaihi salam) was physically taken, and did not die.

"He raised to Himself" can never mean literally because God is everywhere and not only high up in the heavens. He is nearer to us than our artereol. In fact the use of the word "to Himself" proves our point even more. It has to mean spiritually because only spiritually humans are distant or near God. Physically everyone is equally distant.

Show me one verse of Qur'an or one hadith which says Allah is everywhere. Do you know what pantheism is? It is the belief that God is everywhere and everything, and this belief is totally against Islam and against Tawheed. This is what Hindus believe actually. Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala is Al-Khaliq (The Creator), and He is separate from His makhlooq (creation). Allah is NOT everywhere, Allah is ABOVE His creation, He is ABOVE the Heavens and the Earth, He is ABOVE His throne. Allah is not inside His creation or contained by it, He is above and beyond His creation.

You quoted a verse from Qur'an (50:16) and you changed the meaning of the ayah. Let me quote to you the tafsir of Imam Muhammad Ismail ibn Kathir (rahimahullah) for this ayat:

وَنَحْنُ أَقْرَبُ إِلَيْهِ مِنْ حَبْلِ الْوَرِي
And We are nearer to him than his jugular vein
(Holy Qur'an 50:16)

(And We are nearer to him than his jugular vein.) means, His angels are nearer to man than his jugular vein. Those who explained `We' in the Ayah to mean `Our knowledge,' have done so to avoid falling into the idea of incarnation or indwelling; but these two creeds are false according to the consensus of Muslims. Allah is praised and glorified, He is far hallowed beyond what they ascribe to Him. (Tafseer ibn Katheer)

Many Muslims follow the Ashari creed, which believe that this verse means Allah is nearer to you than your jugular vein in His Knowledge and Power. Imam ibn Kathir is refuting the Ashari creed, but even they do not go as far as you to say that "Allah is everywhere"!!!

Allah is above His throne, as the Qur'an says:

إِنَّ رَبَّكُمُ اللّهُ الَّذِي خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضَ فِي سِتَّةِ أَيَّامٍ ثُمَّ اسْتَوَى عَلَى الْعَرْشِ
Surely, your Lord is Allâh Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days and then Istawâ (rose over) the Throne (really in a manner that suits His Majesty)
(Holy Qur'an 10:3)

So when Allah says that He raised Jesus to Himself, it means Jesus (alaihi salam) was raised toward the heavens, because Allah is above the heavens.

أَأَمِنتُم مَّن فِي السَّمَاء
Do you feel secure from He (Allah) Who is in the Heaven...
(Holy Qur'an 67:16)

According to Imam Qurtubi (rahimahullah): The more exacting scholars hold that it ["in the sky"] means, "Do you feel secure from Him who is over the sky"--just as Allah says, "Journey in the earth" (Qur'an 9:2), meaning journey over it--not over the sky by way of physical contact or spatialization, but by way of omnipotent power and control. Another position is that it means "Do you feel secure from Him who is over ('ala) the sky," just as it is said, "So-and-so is over Iraq and the Hijaz", meaning that he is the governor and commander of them (al-Jami li ahkam al-Qur'an, 18.216).

And please remember this dog in your prayers

May Allah guide you to Islam, and if you will not be guided, may He give you a disgraceful demise like your Mirza. (ameen)

[tariqkhwaja]

Yes there is, that is my whole point. Allah says wa rafi'uka ilayya and this is the "qareena", this is the proof that 'Eesa (alaihi salam) was physically taken, and did not die.

I was referring to the Surah Maidah verse 5:118 and not the one you presented. The verse I presented meets all five conditions and, therefore, proves Jesus' death.

Secondly, I do not believe God is everything. Waves (sound waves for example) are everywhere but that does not mean that waves are everything.

Thirdly, God refers to Himself as We all the time in the Quran. Furthermore, in the Quran it is stated:
[2:187] "And when My servants ask thee about Me, say 'I am near. I answer the prayer of the supplicant when he prays to Me. So they should hearken to Me and believe in Me, that they may follow the right way.'
[6:4] "And He is Allah, both in the heavens and in the earth."
[2:116] "So withersoever you turn, there will be the face of Allah."
So He is near. He is not limited to the heavens, He is everywhere. And being taken "up to Him" can only mean spiritually.

Your research is extensive Ilias. But what you have written is clear proof to all those Atheists: you can work extra extra extra hard on your soil to ensure it grows fruitful crops; but if there is no rain then there is no crops. The same is true for understanding the Quran.

[Ilias Ahmad]

I was referring to the Surah Maidah verse 5:118 and not the one you presented. The verse I presented meets all five conditions and, therefore, proves Jesus' death.

So you are admitting to interpreting a verse of the Qur'an by itself, without analyzing the other verses? This is wrong principle of interpreting Qur'an.

[2:187] "And when My servants ask thee about Me, say 'I am near. I answer the prayer of the supplicant when he prays to Me. So they should hearken to Me and believe in Me, that they may follow the right way.'

Yes Allah is near, and by near He means by His knowledge. Read any tafsir by a classical scholar, i.e. Qurtubi, Tabari, ibn Kathir, etc.

[6:4] "And He is Allah, both in the heavens and in the earth."

This means He is worshipped and called as Allah in both the heavens in the earth. If you are trying to say Allah is physically inside the heavens and the earth than this is kufr. Allah is above His creation, not inside it. If you believe Allah is inside His creation than this is pantheism and outright kufr. Please read tafseer for these kind of verses.

[Ilias Ahmad]

[6:4] "And He is Allah, both in the heavens and in the earth."

Please read the following as well:

The term, 'Ilaah' is classical Arabic means, 'the worshipped'; thus the meaning of the above verse is, "It is He Who is worshipped in the heaven and worshipped on the earth". It would have been redundant were the verse to speak about the existence of Allaah in the heaven and on the earth, for the term Illah' is an adjective of Allaah, while the pronouns, 'He' in the verse is used in lieu of the name 'Allaah', therefor, when the name 'Allaah' replaces the pronoun 'He', we get the proper meaning of the verse: 'And it is Allaah Who is worshipped in the heaven and on the earth'. But according to the deviated sect who consider the term, 'Ilaah' as 'Allaah', we get the redundant meaning, 'And Allaah is Allaah in the heaven and Allaah is on the earth,' a sentence which is grammatically, linguistically and logically incorrect. Qatadah, a renowned exegete, interpreted this verse as: 'He is worshipped in the heaven and on the earth'.
Imaam al-Aajurri said: 'al-Ilaah, is the worshipped. He is worshipped in the heaven as He is worshipped on the earth.'

[tariqkhwaja]

So you are admitting to interpreting a verse of the Qur'an by itself, without analyzing the other verses? This is wrong principle of interpreting Qur'an.

Excellent. So you agree that the verse, taken alone, proves what I am saying. Thank you. And since we are still debating the other verse then till this point you agree that I am correct.

Now as for the other verse we are still debating whether Rafa'a is a Qareena that indicates no death. Again, I have already stated that I do not believe God is "in" everything or God "is" everything. I just stated that God is everywhere verily similar to how sound waves are not "in" and "are" everything but are everywhere. Allah is not limited to the heavens because that is what you are saying.

The term, 'Ilaah' is classical Arabic means, 'the worshipped'; thus the meaning of the above verse is, "It is He Who is worshipped

You are telling me that "HuwaAllah" as used in so many verses of the Quran including Surah Ikhlaas (Qul HuwaAllah-u-Ahad) where specifically I see with my eyes the word "Allah" (اللّهُ) is written isolated from any other word does not mean Allah but means "He Who is worshipped"?