Christian: Salvation (Jesus, ritual, Eden, incarnation, followers)

[No*s]

All right, I told Melody that I was going to post what I thought about salvation. Alas, the forum requires me to be brief.

I do not mean sin as some sort of guilt to be forgiven, so I must define my term, because many people on this list will not understand what I mean otherwise. Sin is imperfection. If I shoot an arrow and miss, I sin then I would translate that into Greek with the verb for sin (amartanw). Sin is, thus, an imperfection or missing of the mark.

From this imperfection, we fall out of union with God. From this fall, we suffer from death (Ro. 6.23). Naturally, since each child is born in the image of their parents, and those from their parents, and so on all the way back to Adam and Eve's flawed image of God, this problem persists from generation to generation.

On account of this, we cannot stand the presence of God. Our imperfection and corruption makes it impossible. Rather than experiencing God as the Divine Love that He is, we experience Him as a burning fire. Sin cannot stand in the presence of God. However, we cannot ascend and participate in God's life, because the image is broken, and if the image is broken, then we don't even have the capacity to be like God. God, therefore, cast us out of Eden lest we eat from the Tree of Life (Christ) and live.

It is for this reason that humanity is broken. God could not, however, allow humanity to perish and the Slanderer to destroy His creation. In order to restore the Image of God, God became man (John 1). Christ lived a human life, grew up, and then died. In so doing, He met humanity in Hades/Sheol where they were being held. Hades, however, could not contain Him, and He burst loose and broke the bonds of Death in the process. As a consequence, the souls of the dead burst forth from the tombs and walked among men

There ends, though, my definitions and my common ground. Here is where things become different.

In II Peter 1.4-5, we learn that Christians are "participents in the Divine Nature" and that we are called "unto His own glory and power" while "fleeing from the corruption of the world." Compare this with Christ's promise, which He repeatedly promises to give His followers the power to become "Sons of God." I do not believe this refers to just "adoption," but literally becoming.

Another, more potent, passage is John 20.34ff, in which we read Christ responding to accusations of blasphemy by saying, "Is it not written in your law, `I said, ``You are gods''? If He called them gods to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, `You are blaspheming,' because I said, `I am the Son of God?'"

Compare this to the axiom repeated in the Early Church: "God became man so that men might become gods." This teaching didn't belong to the lunatic fringe, but to mainstream teachers. St. Athanasius taught it. Augustine taught it. Clement of Alexandria taught it. Many others taught it. Do not be suprised by it either. The very word "Christian" means "little Christ." People are called to be "godlike." We all use these terms, but few of us take them seriously.

Famous teacher C.S. Lewis even wrote:

God said (in the Bible) that we were gods and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him for we can prevent Him, if we choose He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, a dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine.

Obviously, this is not an isolated teaching.

Now, also consider the number of people called "Christ" in the Old Testament. They range from David to the pagan king Cyrus. Just as Jesus referred to people being called "gods," so to do we have people being called "christs," or "annointed ones."

This is the promise of God. Paul admonished us that we should that we should not "be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of" our minds. Paul tells us that we view "as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory" (2 Co. 3.18, emphasis mine). We are to look at ourselves in this process by looking in a mirror, and over time, we are to transformed into the very image of Christ.

The same Christ who said in John 10.30 "I and my Father are one" and "Whoever has seen Me has seen the Father," also said prayed that members of His body may be one even as He and the Father are one Jn. 17.11. He even asserts in 17.22 that He is giving His glory to His Body (compare this with 2 Pet. 1.4-5).

In this way, the Church is literally the Body of Christ, and Christ can ask the persecutor of His people, Paul, why he was persecuting Him, not the Church (Acts 9.4). The Church is the very Temple of God (hence not only was the divider in the Holy of Holies torn down, but the very Temple itself was destroyed).

Christ promised in Jn. 6 that we needed to ingest His Body and His Blood to receive eternal life, and He didn't say "the bread and wine symbolizing My Body and Blood." He promised that whoever didn't wouldn't inherit Everlasting Life. That, in turn, is administered by the Church. St. Ignatius, the disciple of the Apostle John, taught clearly that it must be administered by a Bishop of the Church (so if somebody isn't a part of the original Church, they are not receiving the life-saving sacraments).

However, God is not limited by these norms. Baptism is normally a necessary part of salvation, but the thief on the cross got a special priveledge. God often works through exceptions and odd events. So also, God's grace is not limited. Jesus is the divine Logos, and every society has a portion of the Logos -- it literally means anything from "reason" to "word" to "story" to "argument." He is literally the Truth.

All peoples have a portion of it, but not the whole. I will not limit where God's grace is functioning. I will say where it is, though. Paul quoted from the Stoics, sometimes almost verbatim. The Zoroastrians have truth. The Greek philosophers also foreshadowed parts of Christianity. Christ is revealed everywhere truth is present, and those are numerous. However, there is only one place where we know He is incarnated: the Church. The rest of the world is perishing where some may or may not survive on account of Christ's sacrifice and their portion of the Truth. I cannot say how many, if any, will survive. I can only point to His Body.

Melody, I hope this clarifies things a bit *big grin*.

[Melody]

Originally Posted by No*s

Melody, I hope this clarifies things a bit *big grin*.

Oh yeah

I'm going to have to think about this one for a bit and get back to you. Lots to think about!

Melody

[No*s]

Originally Posted by Melody

Oh yeah

I'm going to have to think about this one for a bit and get back to you. Lots to think about!

Melody

OK. Enjoy your thoughts.

Here's a good document about this view of salvation:

http://www.philthompson.net/pages/li...carnation.html

St. Athanasius is a bit wordy, but he's also one of the greatest defenders of the Trinity in the fourth century against the Arians, and this includes some of his reasoning (he is obviously far beyond meager little No*s).

[Scuba Pete]

back to Adam and Eve's flawed image of God,

Is there perchance, a biblical reference that their "image" was flawed?

[No*s]

Originally Posted by NetDoc

Is there perchance, a biblical reference that their "image" was flawed?

I can't think of a direct one, but I can look. I can support it in a "round-robin" type of way, though. If I can't find a direct reference, I'll put up a r-r answer tomorrow (I'm a little tired tonight and will get off as soon as my download is done).

[No*s]

At the very least, we agree that Adam and Eve were created incorrupt and not subject to death, but everything about them was twisted with the entrance of sin, and through it death. If the Image of God is the capacity to be like God, which is a pretty reasonable assertion, then this is certainly affected by the Fall.

Wis. 2.23-24 (I know you probably don't accept it):

For God created us for incorruption, and made us in the image of His own eternity, but through the devil's envy death entered the world, and those who belong to His company experience it.

I know you probably don't accept Wisdom as Scripture, but it forms a pretty direct reference for me. It also happens to be part of my Bible.

However, that's all I'm doing tonight. Have a good evening.

[Scuba Pete]

If the Image of God is the capacity to be like God,

My, my, isn't that what the serpent said? I am not sure I would say the serpent was being "reasonable".

The fall was inevietable... it came from free choice and the desire "to be like God". EVERYONE makes the same mistake at some time in their life.

BTW, is it possible the death that was "introduced" was spiritual in nature? IOW, Adam and Eve died spiritually RIGHT THERE. Death didn't come years later with their physical demise.

But then, it's our nature to overlook the spiritual implications of our actions.

[No*s]

Originally Posted by NetDoc

My, my, isn't that what the serpent said? I am not sure I would say the serpent was being "reasonable".

The fall was inevietable... it came from free choice and the desire "to be like God". EVERYONE makes the same mistake at some time in their life.

BTW, is it possible the death that was "introduced" was spiritual in nature? IOW, Adam and Eve died spiritually RIGHT THERE. Death didn't come years later with their physical demise.

Most lies work because there is at least a kernel of truth to them. I have the quotes on the matter above, and God's words, "Let us make man in our image and according to our likeness."

If you want to make the case that we can't have the likeness of God (by the very definition of the term "likeness," being like God), then do so. A simple "the Devil used it" won't help, because the Devil also quotes Scripture, and has been known to tell the truth to deceive.

Originally Posted by NetDoc

But then, it's our nature to overlook the spiritual implications of our actions.

Funny, I never said that death wasn't also spiritual. After all, in my arguments on Hell, I've made just that argument. If you seriously believe that the Fall didn't result in physical death as well, would you be so kind as to make a case for it? I have the traditional view of the Fall on my side, both Western and Eastern.

Now, I must busy responding to other posts, and after that, make a case for a broken image.

[Scuba Pete]

You missed the point...

My picture has a likeness of me, but it will never BE me.

We are made in God's likeness, but we will never BE God.

The serpent promised to make them equal to God.

The tower of Babel was a try for equality with God.

The creation can never match it's creator.

As for it NOT being a physical death that was introduced... that is simple.

They did not physically die at the time "death was introduced".

It is quite common for man to place more emphasis on the physical than on the spiritual. That comes from man dying spiritually. Do not be amazed when the Bible says "You must be born again". For when YOU sin, then YOU die spiritually.

John 4:23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

[No*s]

Originally Posted by NetDoc

You missed the point...

And you missed the point as well. You'll see several things you assert in here are things I did not say. I can understand the knee-jerk reaction, but it is still responding to something I didn't say.

Originally Posted by NetDoc

My picture has a likeness of me, but it will never BE me.

We are made in God's likeness, but we will never BE God.

The serpent promised to make them equal to God.

The tower of Babel was a try for equality with God.

The creation can never match it's creator.

I never said you would be God. In fact, I said the following.

I quoted II Peter 1.4-5 to say we were participants of the Divine Nature. You cannot be a participent of a thing and still be that thing. It implies a difference.

I quoted Christ's statements in Jn. 10. He used the fact that men were called gods, and made the point that their being such was dependent on the Logos, the Son of God. There is no equality there: the creature is dependant on the creation.

I used the terms "godlike" or "like God," but this doesn't imply equality. It implies there is a differance.

I said that we are to be transformed into the "same image" as Christ (quoting Paul, using his terminology there). What image is that? The restored humanity.

To put it bluntly, the finite will never be infinite. The creature can never be the creator. We can never be equal to God, because He is infinitely far beyond us.

There were Fathers who likened this process to iron. Normally, it is dull, but when placed in the fire, it glows brightly with the fires heat. The heat is always the fire's, and it only participates in it. If it doesn't have the fire, it grows dull and gray again. So it is for the Christian. As they become like God, they take on many of the attributes of God. However, if they are separated they revert to being dull and lifeless.

Calling people "gods" or "christs" isn't exactly something I made up. That very language is used in the Bible. It was continued in the Fathers. It continues in my Church to this day.

I hope that clears it up. I never asserted any of the things you said, and in fact, I wouldn't be accepted by the Church if I had. I can see where the confusion comes in, because theosis is not exactly taught in the West.

Originally Posted by Ne