Christian: Salvation (Jesus, ritual, Eden, incarnation, followers)

[writer]

re 48. Had Saul's sins not been forgiven, personally and privately, the instant he met the Lord around Ac 9:5-6; he couldn't've had intimate fellowship with, and received, the holy GodMan, Jesus the Christ, as his Savior; and been in intimate contact with Him, as he was, the few days before his baptism.

In Ac 22:16, describing the same first days of Paul's new life, Saul's baptizer told Saul to wash away his sins calling on the name of the Lord. Here, in a public way (ie his baptism), Saul did publicly and confessionally the very same thing he had been persecuting the Lord for by persecuting His NT children: audibly invoking Jesus. This 'washed away' that sin before God and before man. Obviously, having met the very supernatural One who'd said to him 'Saul, Saul, why do you persecute Me?' and remaining in prayer with Him for 3 days, Saul doubtless had confessed his glaring sins, and repented deeply, privately to the Lord Jesus. And been forgiven by Him (1 Jn 1:9) then.

Ac 22:16 makes clear there are 2 items separate: 'be baptized' and [a conjunction] 'wash away your sins.' These 2 are separate. Or distinct. Since the apostle writes that if we confess our sins, to the heavenly high priest, He's faithful and fair to forgive us our sins, and cleanse the confessor from all unrighteousness (especially that which he or she confesses); cleansing and forgiveness of our evil sins is not dependent on baptism. Although it is fair to say, also, that by Saul's public confession and demonstration of his faith (ie his baptism), he also 'washed away his sins' (Ac 22:16) before the saints. By submitting to, and identifying himself with, publicly, the very same One and ones whom he was previously blaspheming and persecuting unto death.

In my own experience, when i first received the Lord becoming born anew, i confessed my sins and He forgave me. Although baptism should be performed immediately, or as soon as possible thereafter; sorry to say with me i didn't for another 8 years. In the Pacific ocean at Huntington Beach. Praise the Lord! In summary, neither the blood, nor the forgiveness, of Christ; nor confession of sins, nor calling on the Lord by calling on His name, nor prayer, are limited to the the instant one's baptized. In fact, Christians confess and are forgiven all our Christian-lives. Including before baptism, no matter how short a time that is. God's a relatable Person. Not a religion or a system.

None of this means that baptism's unnecessary. Or not a part of salvation, or salvation-process. It is. Mark 16:16 illustrates this well. He who believes and's baptized shall be saved. Saved from Satan's worldly system (as Baerly i believe has indicated; eg Noah, or Exo 14). He who believes is not condemned [eternally]. Baptism has zero to do with deliverance from eternal perdition. All that's necessary for that's faith in God's Only Begotten. There's so much more, however (Rom 5:10), to salvation.


re 50. 'In Christ' requires more than Incarnation. Incarnation's not the end. It's eternal; but part of His process. In resurrection, the incarnated One not only rose bodily, but 'became a life-giving Spirit' (1 Cor 15:45; Jn 14:17-23; 20:22). To fulfill His last earthly message and prayer (Jn 14-16; Jn 17). To get His believers, organically, into Him, and He into us. Praise God

[sojourner]

'In Christ' requires more than Incarnation. Incarnation's not the end. It's eternal; but part of His process. In resurrection, the incarnated One not only rose bodily, but 'became a life-giving Spirit' (1 Cor 15:45; Jn 14:17-23; 20:22). To fulfill His last earthly message and prayer (Jn 14-16; Jn 17). To get His believers, organically, into Him, and He into us. Praise God

I don't believe that. On this point we will have to differ. Unless I'm not understanding the point you're trying to make. Jesus rose to show that he had triumphed over death (and sin). Because we are "in him," we also triumph over death (and sin). But the resurrection, itself, has little to do with our being "in him."

[writer]

the only way to be in Him iz to be in Him, actually. For instance He prayed in Jn 17, and promised in Jn 14, that He and His Father's d be in us. Which was accomplished after, and even through, His resurrection. Jn 20:22. This is much more than a figurative, semantic, or some odd kind of oraganizational "in." This's in. As the Father's In His Son, and Son in His Father. Permanently.

In other words: God's plan and God's salvation's way much more, and always wuz, than a mere judicial, or legal, salvation from perdition.

That's why God became man. That man may "become God." In His life and in His nature. But not in His Godhead.

And He breathed into them and said to them Receive the Holy Spirit, Jn 20:22. This's eternal life and organic salvation. Not mere positional, or outward, salvation.

Take care

[Baerly]

Originally Posted by sojourner

One has to define what one means by "outside of Christ." What does that mean? Christ's very incarnation placed God as one of us, thereby reconciling all humanity to God. One of the most beloved ancient hymns of the Church is the Agnus Dei -- "Lamb of God, that takes away the sin of the world..."

If God became one of us in Jesus, If Jesus mitigates the sin of the world, who of us can be "outside" of that???

Now we have got to specifics. That is very important to do.

What does it mean to be outside of Christ?

For as many of you as have been baptized INTO CHRIST have put on Christ
(Gal. 3:27).

Just as sure as a person knows when he puts on his coat,one can know when he puts on Christ.

When one is baptized INTO Christ ,he is also added to the church (Acts 2:47).

When one is baptized INTO Christ he is added to the church (1Cor.12:13),he also is washed of his sins according to (Acts 22:16).

In the Lords church this all happens simultaneously. Many teach that these things happen at different times,but that is not what the bible teaches.

For one to be outside of Christ it means a person has NOT been baptized in water,it means they have NOT put on Christ,it means they have NOT had their sins washed away,and it means the Lord has NOT added them to the church. Jesus will only save those who are a part of the body (church) (Eph.5:23) (Col.1:18). I sure want to be a part of that church.

The bible defines what baptism is in (Acts 8:38,39),THEY went down INTO the water.... THEY were come up out of the water. The eunich had to understand what he was doing according to (Acts 8:30). It must be a burial (Rom.6:4). The bible says were are WITH JESUS only when we have been baptized in water (Rom.6:4).

I think that answeres who is outside of Christ and who is inside of Christ
(or the church) (Eph.1:22,23) by the bible standard (1Peter 4:11). in love Baerly

[Baerly]

Originally Posted by writer

re 48. Had Saul's sins not been forgiven, personally and privately, the instant he met the Lord around Ac 9:5-6; he couldn't've had intimate fellowship with, and received, the holy GodMan, Jesus the Christ, as his Savior; and been in intimate contact with Him, as he was, the few days before his baptism.

Ac 22:16 makes clear there are 2 items separate: 'be baptized' and [a conjunction] 'wash away your sins.' These 2 are separate. Or distinct. Since the apostle writes that if we confess our sins, to the heavenly high priest, He's faithful and fair to forgive us our sins, and cleanse the confessor from all unrighteousness (especially that which he or she confesses); cleansing and forgiveness of our evil sins is not dependent on baptism. Although it is fair to say, also, that by Saul's public confession and demonstration of his faith (ie his baptism), he also 'washed away his sins' (Ac 22:16) before the saints. By submitting to, and identifying himself with, publicly, the very same One and ones whom he was previously blaspheming and persecuting unto death.

In my own experience, when i first received the Lord becoming born anew, i confessed my sins and He forgave me. Although baptism should be performed immediately, or as soon as possible thereafter; sorry to say with me i didn't for another 8 years. In the Pacific ocean at Huntington Beach. Praise the Lord! In summary, neither the blood, nor the forgiveness, of Christ; nor confession of sins, nor calling on the Lord by calling on His name, nor prayer, are limited to the the instant one's baptized. In fact, Christians confess and are forgiven all our Christian-lives. Including before baptism, no matter how short a time that is. God's a relatable Person. Not a religion or a system.

None of this means that baptism's unnecessary. Or not a part of salvation, or salvation-process. It is. Mark 16:16 illustrates this well. He who believes and's baptized shall be saved. Saved from Satan's worldly system (as Baerly i believe has indicated; eg Noah, or Exo 14). He who believes is not condemned [eternally]. Baptism has zero to do with deliverance from eternal perdition. All that's necessary for that's faith in God's Only Begotten. There's so much more, however (Rom 5:10), to salvation.


re 50. 'In Christ' requires more than Incarnation. Incarnation's not the end. It's eternal; but part of His process. In resurrection, the incarnated One not only rose bodily, but 'became a life-giving Spirit' (1 Cor 15:45; Jn 14:17-23; 20:22). To fulfill His last earthly message and prayer (Jn 14-16; Jn 17). To get His believers, organically, into Him, and He into us. Praise God

c

Baerly - Are you telling me that the way the Lord accepts his people when their sins are forgiven is that he BLINDS THEM.That is what happen when Saul met the Lord.And your right,a person cannot have part with God unless he has his sins forgiven (Isaiah 59:1,2). The Lord did not tell Saul what to do to have his sins remitted either,the Lord told Saul to go listen to a preacher. Ananius told Saul the solution. He said BE BAPTIZED AND WASH YOUR SINS AWAY.when we obey the Lord we are calling on the Lord according to (Acts 22:16). Here the words baptized and washing, together in the same sentence helps us to understand how (Titus 3:5) has a bearing on the plan of salvation. The word of God amazes me.

Let me deal with the baptizing and washing your sins away being two separate things happening. I like it when people study their bibles. It is a good thing. Your correct in the sense that as man is baptized in the water, it is God who washes our sins away (Eph.1:7) (Rom.6:18). Can you see two different things happening there? This is all explained in (Col.2:12). When were 1. buried with him in baptism....we have faith that 2.God is washing our sins away like he promised to do in
(Acts 2:38) (Heb.8:12) (Acts 22:16).

Now let me deal with (1John 1:9). This verse has NOTHING to do with those outside of Christ (non-christians). The book of (1John ) was wrote to Christians.In other words,they were already Christians,This message was wrote to Christians telling them God has a SECOND LAW OF PARDON,but a person first must be a christian to participate in this second law of pardon. We see both Laws of pardon found within (Acts 8).

To become a Christian one follows (Acts 8:5,12) & (Acts 8:35-39).After becoming a Christian Simon tried to buy the Gift to do miracles (vs.19). Peter loving Simon told him the truth,He would perish because of what he had done.Then Peter told Simon the second Law of pardon. He said, REPENT AND PRAY to be forgiven. (vs.24) Simon done what any person would do who has a good and honest heart
(Luke 8:15), he asks Peter to pray for him. There we have the two laws of pardon. One to become a christian (Acts 8:35-39) and the other we find in (1John 1:9) and (Acts 8:22) which is for Christians to be forgiven when we sin. This is why Christians do not need to be baptized every time we sin and leave the church and then come back after being away for the church for a long time (Heb.10:25,26). I hope I made that clear.If not write me and I wil try again.

Please notice (Rom.6:17,18) tells us that when you OBEYED that form of DOCTRINE you were THEN MADE FREE FROM SIN . When did they obey ? It tells us in the first part of (ROM.6:3-6), when they were baptized in water. So when we are baptized in water were made free from SIN. That is what the bible says PLAINLY, NOT ME. Please believe it. in love Baerly

[Baerly]

Please notice Paul did not start his NEW LIFE until he was IN CHRIST.

(GAL.3:27) says we are baptized INTO Christ (Acts 8:35-39). Before were baptized into Christ we had to be OUTSIDE of Christ.

So when Paul was Baptized INTO CHRIST,it was then that he started his NEW LIFE according to (2Cor.5:17).

(Eph.5:8) tells us that we were in darkness,but now are ye light in th Lord.

(John 3:20 21) helps us to learn when this transformation happens. He that doeth truth comes to the light. One does not get to the light till we obey that form of doctrine (Rom. 6:17,18). We are made free from sin when we obey that doctrine. What was that doctrine? We learn that in (Rom.6:3-6),it is when we are baptized that we are made free from sin according to (Rom.6:17,18). Baerly

[writer]

55 Are you telling me that the way the Lord accepts his people when their sins are forgiven is that he BLINDS THEM.
What?
No. Rather, God's forgiveness IS His acceptance of the sinner

That is what happen when Saul met the Lord.
That's not what happened when writer met the Lord

The Lord did not tell Saul what to do to have his sins remitted either,
That's becuz one can't do anything except receive it

the Lord told Saul to go listen to a preacher.
Thas not mutually-exclusive with listening to the GodMan!

Ananius told Saul the solution.
The solution to? Ananias never used the word, or the thought, "solution"

He said BE BAPTIZED AND WASH YOUR SINS AWAY.
Calling on the name of the Lord (Ac 22:16)

when we obey the Lord we are calling on the Lord according to (Acts 22:16).
That's fair (1 P 3:21). However calling strictly is "epikaleo." Like when you call audibly and someone hears your voice, as throughout Acts and the NT and O

Here the words baptized and washing, together in the same sentence helps us to understand how (Titus 3:5) has a bearing on the plan of salvation.
To the contrary: Titus 3:5's washing is strictly "of regeneration." Not baptism

The word of God amazes me.
Me 2

as man is baptized in the water, it is God who washes our sins away (Eph.1:7) (Rom.6:18).
God can, and duz, wash away sins both before, and after, and outside of, water. He's neither limited to only baptism, nor to the time of baptism.
Additionally, Ephesians 1, and 1:7, and chapters 2 and 3 mention not baptism. Baptism's first and only mention in Ephesians is 4:5.
Romans also discusses and mentions not baptism until chapter 6. 'Long' after the matter of justification and forgiveness is discussed: Rom 3:21-5:11

Can you see two different things happening there?
Romans 6, baptism into His death, involves sanctification. Not justification as Paul uses that term. It involves freedom from the power of sin. Not forgiveness strictly, nor freedom from the guilt of sins. This can be seen in Paul's different uses of the plural "sins," and the singular "sin." Which switch takes place topically between 5:11 and 5:12.
In any case, to try to directly answer your question: there's only the matter of baptism and freedom from the power of sin, and enslavement to God, in Rom 6:18. Washing away of sins in the sense of forgiveness transpired way back in chapters 3 and 4.
Before baptism. And, in the absolute sense, for Paul: before his baptism

This is all explained in (Col.2:12). When were 1. buried with him in baptism....we have faith that 2.God is washing our sins away like he promised to do in
(Acts 2:38) (Heb.8:12) (Acts 22:16).
Just like washing from sins, and forgiveness for sins: faith too is not limited to the act or time of baptism. There is a Christian sect which i'll designate as CoC which, sadly, appears to involve itself, or want to involve others, in a kind of water-worship. Seeing baptism as the center and crucial thing of God's NT. Not Christ.
One positive example is Acts 13:39 where Paul told his audience: In this One everyone who believes is justified. This duz not contradict Ac 2:38. Ac 2:38 duz not contradict 13:39. Both r tru. Hebrews 8:12 also has zero to do with baptism. Either explicitly. Or implicitly

1John 1:9). This verse has NOTHING to do with those outside of Christ (non-christians).
To the contrary: sinners outside of Christ can confess their sins (and get inside of Christ) just the same way, and as easily, as one already in

The book of (1John ) was wrote to Christians.
The entire NT was written, firstly, to Christians. Another positive example is Acts 3:16 where, like Saul of Tarsus, "faith in His name--His name--has healed this man," before he was baptized

To become a Christian one follows (Acts 8:5,12) & (Acts 8:35-39).
And/or one invokes Jesus (Romans 10; Ac 2:21; Rv 22:14, 17). Or simply believes (Jn 3:16; 20:31; Ac 3:16; 10:44-47) into God's living, only begotten, Son. Who is a person. Not a religion nor CoC ritual, religion, or 'law'

...second law of pardon
And third, fourth, fifth, sixths...r the same, in essence and content, as first

Rom.6:17,18) tells us that when you OBEYED that form of DOCTRINE you were THEN MADE FREE FROM SIN .
That form of teaching: is "whoever believes into Him has eternal life..."

When did they obey ? It tells us in the first part of (ROM.6:3-6), when they were baptized in water.
Both faith and baptism are obedience. The "obedience of faith" as Paul wrote in Romans 1:5. Faith necessarily precedes baptism. The obedience of faith both precedes, and then includes, the obedience of baptism. Unless one (and i hope Baerly duzn't) propounds forced conversions, or baptisms etc of babies, or on pain of torture, exile, or death. But then: none of those have any Spiritual value

So when we are baptized in water were made free from SIN. That is what the bible says PLAINLY, NOT ME. Please believe it.
Ac 9, for instance, indicates that Saul ceased his sin of persecuting saints once he met his Messiah. Saul didn't have to wait for that til his baptism.
Please read it. Thanks Baerly

[Baerly]

Writer wrote - God can, and duz, wash away sins both before, and after, and outside of, water. He's neither limited to only baptism, nor to the time of baptism.

Baerly wrote - Would you please show me in the bible where Jesus said those things in those words. If he did you should have NO PROBLEM finding those quotes of Jesus. On the other hand if Jesus did not say those things,I would not be telling and teaching those things (1Tim.1:3) (Gal.1:6-9) (1Cor.1:10).

Writer wrote - : sinners outside of Christ can confess their sins (and get inside of Christ) just the same way, and as easily, as one already in

Baerly wrote - Please show me in the bible where it says that in those words. If it does I will believe it and teach it to others. And who are the others already in Christ and how did they get there? It almost sounds like your saying there are many ways of getting (into) Christ. If that is so I am sure you will have no problem finding those sayings in the bible.

One other thing that needs to be addressed is the synecdoche. This is when one word is used to represent the whole (many parts). This is very important when reading the bible. Many times the bible uses the word BELIEVETH or BELIEVED to represent all the steps of salvation. It would be a good study. in love Baerly

[Baerly]

BAPTISM "FOR" THE REMISSION OF SINS / thepreachersfiles.com

February 27, 2005 by Mike Riley - Mike Riley's Blog
In the religious world today there is much controversy over the subject of baptism. Some believe it is necessary to obedience and one may not refuse to submit, but it is not essential to our becoming a child of God. Others believe it is not necessary at all while others believe it is a prerequisite in becoming a Christian.
What Do The Scriptures Say?
Peter was asked by the those assembled on Pentecost, "What should we do?" (Acts 2:37). He replied, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38). The expression, "for the remission of sins" is literally "into (to, unto, with a view to) the remission of sins." Also note that inspiration puts (1) repent and (2) baptism before (3) "remission of sins."
Argument Over The Word "For"
Some in the religious world argue that the word "for" before "remission of sins" is translated from the Greek word "eis" and means "because of." In other words, one is to repent and be baptized "because" his sins have already been forgiven.
First, that would be a strange interpretation putting repentance after one becomes a Christian rather than before. Can one be saved without repentance (Luke 13:3,5; Luke 24:47; Acts 17:30-31)? Secondly, it is also interesting that Jesus himself tied baptism with belief (faith) in Mark 16:16. He also put "saved" after both belief and baptism. If one is saved before repentance and baptism, then the same would hold true of belief (faith) in Mark 16:16. Is one saved before he believes that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God?
The Greek Expression "Eis" And A Similar Passage
Does the Greek expression "eis", rendered "for" in Acts 2:38 mean "because of?" If the expression means one is already saved before he repents and is baptized, it would have that meaning in other passages where it is used. If it does not mean that in other passages, it cannot mean that in Acts 2:38.
When Jesus instituted His supper, he stated in the latter part of Matthew 26:28, "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." Who will argue that we are saved before Jesus shed his blood (Hebrews 9:22)? If the expression, "for the remission of sins" means one is saved before what is described prior to the expression in Acts 2:38, then that interpretation must also apply in Matthew 26:28. It would make Jesus saying His blood was shed for many because their sins were already forgiven. Just think, you and I were saved before Jesus shed His blood! If we were, then we were saved by something other than the blood of Jesus!
Conclusion
If the phrase "for the remission of sins" in Matthew 26:28 means Jesus' blood was shed "in order" that you and I might receive the remission of our sins, then the same expression in Acts 2:38 means you and I repent and are baptized "in order" to receive the remission of sins.

[writer]

58 Would you please show me in the bible where Jesus said God can, and duz, wash away sins both before, and after, and outside of, water. He's neither limited to only baptism, nor to the time of baptism; in those words.
Sure Baerly. Thanks for asking. The words are not the same, but the thought is. Otherwise i'm guessin that even U mite have recognized 'em.

And He entered again into Capernaum after a few days, and it was heard that He was at home. And many were gathered together, so that there was no longer room, not even at the door. And He spoke to them the word. And they came, bringing to Him a paralytic carried by four men. And being unable to bring him to Him because of the crowd, they removed the roof where He was. And when they had dug through, they lowered the mat on which the paralytic was lying. And Jesus, seeing their faith, said to the paralytic, Child, your sins are forgiven (Mark 2:1-5).

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9, through His apostle, John).

By extension of Mark 2:1-5, there's Acts 3:1-4:12. Peter and John were going into the temple...a certain man who had been lame from his mother's womb...laid at the door...Peter said, Silver and gold I don't possess, but what I have, this I give to you: In the name of Jesus the Nazarene rise up and walk...instantly his feet and ankles were made strong. And leaping up and about, he stood and began to walk...walking and leaping and praising God...Upon faith in His name, His name has made this man strong...and the faith which's through Him has given him this wholeness of health before you all...Repent therefore and turn, that your sins may be wiped away...Many of those who heard the word believed...there's salvation in no other, for neither's there another name under heaven given among men in which we must be saved.

To this One all the prophets testify that through His name everyone who believes into Him will receive forgiveness of sins (Acts 10:43).

From all the things from which you weren't able to be justified by the law of Moses, in this One everyone who believes is justified (Acts 13:39).

But the tax collector, standing at a distance, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, God, be propitiated to me, the sinner! I tell you, This man went down to his house justified (Luke 18:13-14).

And He said to her, Your sins are forgiven...Your faith has saved you (Lk 7:48, 50).

Repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem (Lk 24:47).

Whose sins you forgive, they're forgiven them; and whose sins you retain, they're retained (John 20:23).

Whom God set forth as a propitiation place through faith in His blood (Romans 3:35).

Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness (Rm 4:3).

Faith's accounted as righteousness (4:5).

Is this blessing then upon the circumcision only, or also upon the uncircumcision? For we say, Faith was accounted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it accounted? While he was in circumcision or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while in uncircumcision, that he might be the father of all those in uncircumcision who believe, that righteousness might be accounted to them also (4:9-11).

...Accounted to him as righteousness...for ours also to whom it's to be accounted, who believe on Him who has raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered for our offenses and was raised for our justification (4:22-25)


you should have NO PROBLEM finding those quotes of Jesus.
You're right about that Baerly----No problem.
Thanks