Christian: Salvation (Jesus, ritual, Eden, incarnation, followers)

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by athanasius

Baerly, You may not understand this but the Christian church has always taught the concept of orignal sin. Hence, Adam and Eve sinned and all humanity shares in this sinful nature. Babies can not commit personal sin, but they all have recieved the plague of orignal sin due to our first parents. One of the results from our Inheritance of original sin is bodily death. Infants can die. Therfore they are under the curse of orignal sin. (Romans 5:12-14) is clearly teaches orignal sin. Sorry you misunderstood. Also another result from original sin we have from our first parents Adam and Eve is Pains during childbirth(Gen 3:16)! All women have them! Hence all women have inherited orignal sin.

So, athanasius, what is your belief concerning the fate of a baby who dies prior to its being baptized? In short, it is received into Heaven or condemned to Hell? Depending upon what you answer is, I will probably be back with more questions.

[athanasius]

I would say exaclty what the Catholic church would say in her Catechsim or offical teaching (See Catholic catechsim Paragraph 1261) . The Baby cannot go to hell because he or she hasn't commited personal mortal sin, only has orignal sin on her soul. We would entrust this child to God and believe that the baby by Special Grace of Christ would enter heaven if God wills it.amen!

[athanasius]

of coarse the safest bet to salvation for a infant in cases of near death is to get the orignal sin washed away and enter into intitial salvation by the Holy sacrament of baptism which the Holy Spirit works through(titus 3:5-7, 1 Peter 3:19-21, acts 22:16, eph 5:26)

[writer]

of coarse the safest bet to salvation for a infant in cases of near death is to get the orignal sin washed away
Baptism doesn't "wash away" original sin.
"Infant baptism" is, by definition, not baptism

and enter into intitial salvation by the Holy sacrament of baptism which the Holy Spirit works through(titus 3:5-7, 1 Peter 3:19-21, acts 22:16, eph 5:26).
"Sacrament" as used above's an anti-biblical concept and term. Titus 3:5's "washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit" is neither a direct nor exclusive reference to baptism (which i'm defining as Christian, water, baptism). The entire book of Titus does not mention baptism. Likewise Ephesians 5:26 is not baptism. Rather it refers to the experience of the Spirit through God's word as a daily matter. Cf John 4:14; 7:37-39; 19:34. Acts 22:16, like Acts 2:38, deals particularly with a notorious sinner-and-opponent-of-Christ's public confession and declaration, by his baptism, before men and Christians. Not any superstitious washing away or eradicating of sin or original sin intrinsically, metabolically, and existentially. Lastly (no offence), in 1 P 3:21 Peter specifically and explicitly expresses that baptism is NOT a putting away of the sin (filth) of the flesh. But, rather, in contrast, constitutes the appeal of a good conscience to God through Christ's resurrection.
Thanks

[athanasius]

Baptism does wash away original sin allow me to quote:
"Rise and be baptised Wash away your sins and call on his name"(Acts 22:16)

Also 1 Peter 3:19-21 does show baptism does give you the grace of salvation. "Baptism now saves you" Hence the Holy Spirit Works(saves) through water. Peter is right, this baptism does not cleanse you from physical dirt, its not that type of bath. Its the Bath of regeneration(Titus 3:5-7) this bath cleanses you from spiritually, your consious and your soul.

It is the Holy spirit that creates the new life in us, but he works creating in us new life through water and has done this since the beginning of time(Gen 1:2) Genesis prefigures this connection with baptism. Hence the Spirit has always been connected to creating new and good life through Water.

A formal prophecy of Ezekiel puts it this way;
"I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleaness....I will cleanse you. A new heart I will give you and a new spirit I will put within you....And I will put my spirit within you"(Ezekiel 36:25-27)
So God will recrreate us and regenerate us spiritually. He will put the Holy Spirit in us and wash away our sins. But he will do this through Water. This prefigures and prophecies the Sacrament of Water baptism and its saving grace.

All The Early Chfristians believed this was water baptism in the first 8 centuries of the church. Funny That writer thinks that water baptism cannot wash away your sins. Does he believe that God cannot work through water to crerate new life? He does in Genesis 1, he showed us he will as Ezekiel spoke of, and he clearly does as Acts 22:16 and 1 peter 3:19-21 show. All Early Christians bellieved it. Amen. Of coarse Other bible only protestants like Lutherans agree with us and say this is quite a biblical concept.

God bless

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by athanasius

Baerly, You may not understand this but the Christian church has always taught the concept of orignal sin.

That would, of course, be the Roman Catholic Church, wouldn't it? My Church doesn't and I am concvinced that it is the Christian Church.

Hence, Adam and Eve sinned and all humanity shares in this sinful nature. Babies can not commit personal sin, but they all have recieved the plague of orignal sin due to our first parents. One of the results from our Inheritance of original sin is bodily death. Infants can die. Therfore they are under the curse of orignal sin.

Okay, if babies "received the plague of original sin," what exactly does that mean to them. Let's say a baby dies before it has been baptized. It is guilty of a sin some man committed 6000 years ago. It is guilty because it was born, and for no other reason. Where there is guilt, there must be punishment. How will God punish that baby?

[James the Persian]

Originally Posted by athanasius

Baerly, You may not understand this but the Christian church has always taught the concept of orignal sin. Hence, Adam and Eve sinned and all humanity shares in this sinful nature. Babies can not commit personal sin, but they all have recieved the plague of orignal sin due to our first parents. One of the results from our Inheritance of original sin is bodily death. Infants can die. Therfore they are under the curse of orignal sin. (Romans 5:12-14) is clearly teaches orignal sin. Sorry you misunderstood. Also another result from original sin we have from our first parents Adam and Eve is Pains during childbirth(Gen 3:16)! All women have them! Hence all women have inherited orignal sin.

What do you mean by Original Sin? If you mean that we inherit the natural consequences of Adam's turning from God (mortality and a propensity towards sin) because we share the same nature as him, then you are corect that the Church has always taught this. If, on the other hand, you mean that we are born sinful because we inherit the guilt for Adam's sin, then I'm afraid that you will not find this doctrine before the time of Bl. Augustine of Hippo, who was its originator. The latter view was always rejected in the east (even when we were still in communion with Rome) whereas in the west it was accepted to the point that in some periods of history it was the dominant view (though I don't believe the older, pre-Augustinian understanding was ever completely lost).

We still reject the Augustinian view just as we reject much of his theology. He is a saint in our Church (Blessed for us is not a lower 'rank' as it is for RCs but merely an alternative title) but only due to his great piety, not his theology which in our view varies from slightly misguided to outright heretical, though having asked correction if he erred and yet receiving none he cannot be said in any way to be a heretic as that implies wilfull, not ignorant, adherence to incorrect doctrine.

James

[writer]

25 Baptism does wash away original sin allow me to quote: "Rise and be baptised Wash away your sins and call on his name"(Acts 22:16)
Thanks. Please permit me 2 quote in rebuttal: "baptism, NOT a putting away of the filth of the flesh" (1 P 3:21, emphasis added). In addition, u properly quoted Ac 22:16. "Sins," plural. Not sin, original sin, sin nature, singular (unlike Ac 2:38; 1 Jn 1:9). Sin, although the element and cause of sins, is not an identical concept. Nor word. One has an 's' at the end. The other does not. "Sin," singular, at times may refer to an individual act of sin, or even sins plural. But "sins," plural, never is used for sin as an element (original sin, sinful nature within man) singular. Lastly, Ananias' command to Saul in Ac 22:16 is not meant intrinsically nor in God's legal sense b4 God. Only the Lamb's blood washes away (justifies from) sin (Ac 13:39; 1 Jn 1:7, 9; Rm 3:24-26; Rv 22:14). This can, and should, transpire b4, during, and after baptism. It's not dependent either on baptism nor on the water of baptism. It's the basis, reason, and cause for the forgiveness mentioned in Ac 2:38 and the washing mentioned in Ac 22:16. Not vice versa. As much as the rest of the Bible's interpreted in the light of Ac 2:38 and/or 22:16; even more 2:38 and 22:16 are interpreted properly in the light of the rest of the Bible and its context. As Paul the apostle wrote in Romans 3:25 concerning Christ and His physical blood: Whom God set forth as a propitiation place through faith in His blood...

1 Peter 3:19-21 does show baptism does give you the grace of salvation. "Baptism now saves you" Hence the Holy Spirit Works(saves) through water.
Baptism saves and's gracious. This is absolutely correct and accurate (cf also Mk 16:16). However, the word "saves" has different applications depending on its context. For instance, baptism saves in 1 P 3:21 in the way 3:21 says it does: as "the appeal of a good conscience to God." That is, out of obedience (cf Lk 7:29-30). As Peter the apostle wrote: "Not the putting away of the filth of the flesh." Baptism neither does, nor can, "eradicate" the sinful element from believers' flesh. As John the apostle wrote in 1 Jn 1:8 concerning believers: "If we say that we do not have sin, we are deceiving ourselves." Through 'baptism,' as Peter's example shows, Noah judged the world and was separated from it (1 P 3:20). Paul shows likewise. "By faith Noah, having been divinely instructed concerning things not yet seen and being moved by pious fear, prepared an ark for the salvation of his house, through which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which's according to faith (Heb 11:7). Incidentally, 11:7 also shows that baptism requires faith. Personal faith. On the part of the one(s) baptized. Without such faith, baptism is not baptism. Hence so-called infant baptism is not baptism, never will be, never was, and never could be. Not to say it's a crime or heresy. It's not. It's simply not baptism.
Mark 16:16, the Lord's words, show likewise. He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. This salvation here, strictly speaking, is not the salvation of justification. B4 God. Rather it's the same specific salvation Peter speaks of in 1 P 3:20-21. I.e. salvation from the world. Of course the latter requires, is dependent upon, and's based on the former. Not vice versa. Our Lord continued in Mk 16:16 "but he who does not believe shall be condemned." The way to escape, be saved from, eternal condemnation is simply faith in God's Son, who is God, who died and rose for the sins, and life, of the world. The way for further, or development of, that started salvation is to be baptized in water. In fact: that's the immediate, next step after believing into Jesus. As the New Testament (and Old) shows. Mk 16:16's thought is also matched by the same Lord's words in John 3:18. "He who believes into Him isn't condemned; but he who does not believe has been condemned already, because he hasn't believed into the name of the only begotten Son of God." Of course the remedy for such condemnation's simply to believe into, and receive, God's living Son, the living, crucified and resurrected Christ. Jesus. Of Nazareth.
Lastly, Paul and Moses also duplicate the same thought concerning 2 different aspects of initial salvation in Heb 11:28-29 and Ex 12 and 14, typologically. "By faith he instituted the Passover and the pouring out of the blood so that the one destroying the firstborn would not touch them." This references eternal forgiveness, justification, and salvation through faith alone. "By faith they passed through the Red Sea as through dry land, in which the Egyptians, while making the attempt, were swallowed up." This references baptism. Following faith. Requiring faith. Based on faith. Issuing in more faith. And constituting a salvation from Satan's sinful world, cosmos ("Egypt"). Likewise with the salvation Israel experienced from God's judgment of the death angel (Ex 12). Followed by Israel's salvation, escape, rescue, from Satan's world and system (Ex 14). Baptism

Peter is right, this baptism does not cleanse you from physical dirt, its not that type of bath. Its the Bath of regeneration(Titus 3:5-7) this bath cleanses you from spiritually, your consious and your soul.
Baptism, like any physical plunging in water, does and can wash away physical dirt. It's...unavoidable. To say that water doesn't wash away dirt is plainly dumb (no offence, please don't take it as such). Maybe i should ask first: is there something special, or specially weird, about baptism-water that it can't affect dirt?
In any case, neither the apostle Peter, nor his (at least original) readers should have been so silly as to tell folks, or understand, that baptism's purpose isn't to wash away physical dirt from the baptized's body. It appears that that's the claim the dear poster's comment above is seeking to make. The "filth of the flesh" in 1 P 3:21 is identical to the same thought in the rest of Peter's 1st epistle. "Don't be fashioned according to the former lusts" (1 P 1:14). "Be holy because I am holy" (1:15). "Lamb without blemish and without spot, the blood of Christ" (1:19). "Fleshly lusts" (2:11). "No sin, nor was guile found in His mouth" (2:22). "Our sins in His body on the tree, in order that we, having died to sins" (2:24). "Pure manner of life" (3:2). "Incorruptible adornment of a meek and quiet spirit" (3:4). "evil for evil" (3:9). "Guile" (3:10). "Evil" (3:11, 12). "Good manner of life" (3:16). "Good...evil" (3:17). "Sins" (3:18). "Filth of the flesh" (3:21). "Sin" (4:1). "In the flesh in the lusts of men" (4:2). "Desire of the Gentiles...licentiousness, lusts, debaucheries, carousings, drinking bouts, and lawless idolatries" (4:3). "Flood of dissoluteness, slandering" (4:4). "Murderer or a thief or an evildoer or as a meddler" (4:15). "Ungodly and the sinner" (4:18). "Base" (5:2). "Proud" (5:5).
This's the same throughout the NT. Eg James 1:21 "Therefore putting away all filthiness and the abundance of malice [ill will], receive in meekness the implanted word which's able to save your souls." Revelation 22:11 "Let him who does unrighteousnessdo unrighteousness still; and let him who's filthy be filthy still; and let him who does righteousness do righteousness still; and let him who's holy be holy still."
Gracias

[writer]

personally i've no prob callin Christian baptism a "bath o' regeneration" (Jn 3:5, 22-23; 1:31, 33; Mk 1:4, 8). However this's not what Titus, or Titus 3:5, tox about. Not out of works in righteousness which we did but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing [laver] of regereration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit. Rather, accordin to Titus 3:5, and in 3:5, regeneration IZ Titus 3:5's washing. Which, like the Holy Spirit's renewin in the same verse, r also more than once-for-all events