Christian: Salvation (Jesus, ritual, Eden, incarnation, followers)

[Scuba Pete]

Compare this to the axiom repeated in the Early Church: "God became man so that men might become gods." This teaching didn't belong to the lunatic fringe, but to mainstream teachers. St. Athanasius taught it. Augustine taught it. Clement of Alexandria taught it. Many others taught it. Do not be suprised by it either. The very word "Christian" means "little Christ." People are called to be "godlike." We all use these terms, but few of us take them seriously.

You did not imply that you disagreed with any of this. If you disagree with the tenets herein, then why bring them up without a caveat? That only confuses.

So, if Adam and Eve had not sinned, they would still have died physically? That isn't something I find in Scripture, the Fathers, or the Church's teachings.

There is no evidence either way, now is there? However, since they had to leave the presense of God, then we know that spiritually they had died. Usually, when I don't find something in scripture, I try not to teach it as if it were.

I have been created in God's image.

Obviously this image is "spiritual" in nature, or we would ALL look alike.

My sin is my own... I cannot shift blame to Adam and Eve.

I do not inherit the sins of my father. Nor he, his.

[No*s]

Now, for the Image.

The Apostle Paul makes a hard division between the image humanity has, and the image humanity is being transformed into.

He writes:

In 1 Cor. 15, Paul talks about the nature of the future body. He teaches that "All flesh is not the same" in v. 39. After giving several examples of different types, he writes "So is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body."

Paul then goes on to juxtapose the "natural image" we inherited from Adam with the "spiritual image" Christ gives. He culminates this part of the argument in v. 49 where he plainly states, "And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man."

Compare that with Paul's promise in 2 Cor. 3.18, he asserts what I quoted in the opening of this thread, "we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord." Here is where Paul teaches that we will have the "same image" as Christ...referring to His humanity, as it has been divinized.
In Colossians, he makes similar assertians. He teaches that Christ is "the image of the invisible God" (1.15). In the very passage where Paul admonishes us to "put on the new man," he tells us that this "new man...is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created Him." Here, the image of the new man is associated with a "renewal" and the "image" of the Creator. It is also asserted we are renewed into that image. This is, of course, our final goal, as God had chosen beforehand that His people "be conformed to the image of His Son" (Ro. 8.29).

We know that humanity is made in the image of God. How could this image of God be transformed into the image of God, or be renewed into it, unless something were broken? Paul seems to agree quite profusely.

What of the Old Testament?

Well, we know that God used it as a reason for not shedding blood. In Gen. 9.6, we read "He that sheds man's blood instead of that blood shall his own be shed, for in the image of God I made man." Clearly it isn't destroyed, but is inherited. It is also not right.

However, the inherited image isn't just God's, it is man's. Read also "Adam lived two hundred and thirty years, and begot a son after his own form and after his own image." Each generation receives their humanity from their predecessors, so if something is wrong there, it is wrong here. After all, God created living things to bear offspring each "according to its likeness." The image is inherited.

So, we have from the NT a clear teaching that the image must be fixed, and that humanity will assume the Image of Christ. We know from the Old Testament, that the image of God wasn't utterly destroyed. We also know that it is inherited. I have limited myself to passages where "image" is mentioned so that there is no real room to wiggle. After all, I could always cite passages on death, sin, the flesh, and the like. However, passages mentioning "image" are sufficient.

[No*s]

Originally Posted by NetDoc

You did not imply that you disagreed with any of this. If you disagree with the tenets herein, then why bring them up without a caveat? That only confuses.

No. I imply that you are making them say something they didn't say. In not one place do I, or any of these men, teach that men become equal with God.

Originally Posted by NetDoc

There is no evidence either way, now is there? However, since they had to leave the presense of God, then we know that spiritually they had died. Usually, when I don't find something in scripture, I try not to teach it as if it were.

Sure there is. There is a multiplicity of references in the NT to "the grave" as an enemy of Christ. Paul doesn't make a hard distinction between physical and spiritual deaths as if they are two unrelated items. Jesus had to become flesh to solve the problem, so it clearly isn't limited to the spiritual there. There is an emphasis on Christ's conquering corruption and decay, and never is this narrowed down to just spiritual corruption.

Originally Posted by NetDoc

I have been created in God's image.

Obviously this image is "spiritual" in nature, or we would ALL look alike.

There is some truth to this, but man is not just spiritual. We are material and spiritual. When the "spiritual" part falls, so does the material. You do, after all, receive your image from your father and mother.

Originally Posted by NetDoc

My sin is my own... I cannot shift blame to Adam and Eve.

I do not inherit the sins of my father. Nor he, his.

Nope, you don't inherit guilt from their sins. You do inherit a broken image. There's a big difference, and a mistranslation of Ro. 5.12 is what ultimately led to the pen-sub model of atonement. The mistranslation made it where "we all sinned in Adam," whereas the proper reading was "because we all sinned." Augustine placed a heavy emphasis on inherited guilt from this, and later, Anslem made it a dominant analogy.

For an analogy of what I'm saying in regard to sin, suppose a rich father squanders his family fortune and places his family in abject poverty. The children are not guilty of their father's actions, but the consequences of the actions carry on from generation to generation. It's an analogy, and it's flawed like all analogies, but I think it explains the distinction between consequences and guilt just fine.

[Scuba Pete]

and begot a son after his own form and after his own image

Note the separation of "form" and "image".

Is it the separation of the physical and the spiritual?

As for "original sin"... there is no basis for that in any scripture. You can not blame Adam or me for your sin. That is man's general nature... right from Adam till the present:

Genesis 3:12 The man said, "The woman you put here with me--she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."

So it is that Adam blamed eve just as you are blaming Adam. When will the blame shifting stop?

Ezekial 18:1. The word of the LORD came to me:
2 "What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel: "`The fathers eat sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge'? 3 "As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. 4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son--both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

If you don't sin, then you won't die. Only one person has achieved this in their life time.

Romans 3:22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

No one needed to inherit sin... we are all quite capable on our own. That is the curse that is "free choice" and also the only way for us to really love God as well.

[No*s]

Originally Posted by NetDoc

Note the separation of "form" and "image".

Is it the separation of the physical and the spiritual?

I would be hesitant to say so for obvious reasons, but I'd have to check other things (like the Fathers).

Originally Posted by NetDoc

As for "original sin"... there is no basis for that in any scripture. You can not blame Adam or me for your sin. That is man's general nature... right from Adam till the present:

I think I'm going to have to avoid using the term "sin" at all so that I can get my point across.

I don't blame Adam for my wrongs. He didn't choose my sins. I did. I don't think I inherited guilt for his transgression. He transgressed, and he suffered consequences for that.

What I said I got from him was corruption. When he transgressed, what he was changed into something different. Every generation inherits not his first nature, but his fallen nature. This is passed down from generation to generation.

The guilt or responsibility for his transgression is not passed down. I am responsible solely for my own actions, but I am subject to the consequences of my predecessors' actions.

After all, the children of the rich father in my example aren't guilty of their father's squandering of wealth, but they will grow up in poverty nonetheless.

Originally Posted by NetDoc

Genesis 3:12 The man said, "The woman you put here with me--she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."

So it is that Adam blamed eve just as you are blaming Adam. When will the blame shifting stop?

NetDoc,

When did I say, "Adam made me sin" or "Look God, this forefather You made for me, he made me sin?" Since I said no such thing, and since I say the guilt of my actions are my own, this is a little misplaced. In fact, I said that earlier in this thread.

Originally Posted by NetDoc

Ezekial 18:1. The word of the LORD came to me:
2 "What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel: "`The fathers eat sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge'? 3 "As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. 4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son--both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

If you don't sin, then you won't die. Only one person has achieved this in their life time.

Here we heavily disagree. I separate sin as in corruption or imperfection (amartia) and sin as in transgression (amartima). It's true that the former can mean the latter, but the latter can never assume the meaning of the former.

I think we have a problem of talking past each other, because I make this distinction, and you apparently don't. Evidently I hadn't explained this sufficiently.

As for people having to actively transgress before they die, let us remember that Christ died. Newborn infants die. How could they have sinned? Infants in their mothers die, both from natural causes and abortion. How could a child sin while still in the belly of his/her mother?

Death takes people of all ages, and it makes no discrimination. I have an answer: everyone has sin. We are born in corruption, our minds are imperfect, and we live in it. We inherit this from our parents. It causes death, and this death takes infants, unborn children, children, mothers, fathers, everybody.

This isn't guilt. Guilt only comes as a result of our transgressing or acting imperfectly as a result. It is simply what we are. It doesn't help that it makes sin well-nigh unavoidable (not unavoidable) either.

I don't need to cite much Scripture here. The death of infants, the inherited mortality (death reigning from Adam on, as Paul put it in Ro. 5), the indiscriminate nature of it, all should gravitate pretty heavily against what you say. Infants and unborn children, who have not yet even had an oppertunity to sin, both die.

Your interpretationof the Bible, "If you don't sin, you don't die" breaks down when we look at that. If you disagree that infants and the unborn sinned, then you'll have to tell me how they sinned. Death sure seems to take them.

Originally Posted by NetDoc

Romans 3:22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

No one needed to inherit sin... we are all quite capable on our own. That is the curse that is "free choice" and also the only way for us to really love God as well.

Evidently we do inherit some corruption. Infants and the unborn have no will or choice we can think of to sin with, but they die, and they most certainly are human.

As for Romans, Paul spoke about the Gentiles in the beginning. Then he shifted to the Jews. In both spots, he's talking collectively. Then in chapter 3, he starts speaking about "all." Maybe he's referring to all groups of people. After all, he'd covered both Jew and Gentile. I don't know any other classifications in that vein. In fact, in 3.9 he states that rather expressly.

I've already given plenty of Scripture earlier in the thread, and I don't need to again, unless said Scripture is disproven.

[Scuba Pete]

If you disagree that infants and the unborn sinned, then you'll have to tell me how they sinned. Death sure seems to take them.

Again you revert to the physical to explain the spiritual.

Physical death need only be feared if you have already died spiritually.

Babies have no need to fear death and need no redemption.

Jesus, while he did not sin, BECAME sin, and also died spiritually... "Eloi, eloi, lama sabachthani!" Ever wondered why the disciples didn't dare to translate that except as an afterthought?

Stop worrying about physical death, and start worrying about spiritual rebirth.

[No*s]

Originally Posted by NetDoc

Again you revert to the physical to explain the spiritual.

Physical death need only be feared if you have already died spiritually.

Babies have no need to fear death and need no redemption.

Jesus, while he did not sin, BECAME sin, and also died spiritually... "Eloi, eloi, lama sabachthani!" Ever wondered why the disciples didn't dare to translate that except as an afterthought?

Stop worrying about physical death, and start worrying about spiritual rebirth.

I believe the physical and the spiritual are intimately connected, with some of the reasons explained in this thread, and I see no reason not to view it that way.

Alas, we've reached the point where each of us will go "uh-uh" and the other "uh-uh."

At least we seem to agree on politics lol.

[Baerly]

Let me just address one part of your lesson for now. Jesus wanted his followers to be one with him (Jesus),just as Jesus and the father were one (John 17:20- 23). Jesus was refering to speaking the same thing (1Cor.1:8-10) (1Peter 4:1) (Phlil.2:5). Earlier in (John 17:8) Jesus has recorded for us all to realize that the doctrine for the church was actually coming from God the Father,down to and through Jesus to His apostles.Of course Jesus did send the Comforter
(The Holy Spirit) to bring to their rememberance all things he had said to them while on the earth according to (John 14:26 ; 16:13). It was in this manner that the message was protected from any error. The POWER of the Holy Spirit helped to preserve all doctrine Jesus had taught the apostles. Thus everyone can and should be teaching what the bible says,but because of personal choice in the matter some have chose to reject parts or all of Gods word.That is why we have many diffierent religions,because people wanted a buffet style religion rather than following and listening to Jesus like (John 10:27) says to do. This is what the bible was talking about when it spoke of the falling away. So the being one in (John 17) is not a literal physical body but being one in spirit and doctrine and words (Acts 11:14). If those words we tell people do not harmonize with the words of Jesus those words have no saving power (GAl.1:6-9) (John 12:48). --in love Baerly